1
00:00:04,190 --> 00:00:00,850
[Music]

2
00:00:06,020 --> 00:00:04,200
this is David Marler UFO researcher and

3
00:00:09,710 --> 00:00:06,030
you're listening to that UFO podcast

4
00:00:12,230 --> 00:00:09,720
[Music]

5
00:00:14,870 --> 00:00:12,240
hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO

6
00:00:17,090 --> 00:00:14,880
podcast my guest today I'm very excited

7
00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:17,100
to say is a freelance science journalist

8
00:00:21,950 --> 00:00:19,980
physics editor at quanta magazine and

9
00:00:24,710 --> 00:00:21,960
former contributing writer at National

10
00:00:27,050 --> 00:00:24,720
Geographic she specializes in covering

11
00:00:29,330 --> 00:00:27,060
astronomy astrophysics and planetary

12
00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:29,340
science most recently she has appeared

13
00:00:35,030 --> 00:00:32,160
as part of NASA's independent study into

14
00:00:36,770 --> 00:00:35,040
unidentified anomalous phenomena I could

15
00:00:38,389 --> 00:00:36,780
say Ariel but we'll go with anomalists

16
00:00:40,549 --> 00:00:38,399
and we'll get back to that I'd like to

17
00:00:42,650 --> 00:00:40,559
welcome Dr Nadia Drake Nadia welcome

18
00:00:43,569 --> 00:00:42,660
thank you it's so good to be chatting

19
00:00:46,190 --> 00:00:43,579
with you

20
00:00:49,190 --> 00:00:46,200
incredibly good to have you on and um we

21
00:00:50,930 --> 00:00:49,200
started arranging this way back when I

22
00:00:53,209 --> 00:00:50,940
think um you were one of the first names

23
00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:53,219
I saw on the list of people that were

24
00:00:56,810 --> 00:00:54,600
going to be part of the study that we're

25
00:00:58,369 --> 00:00:56,820
going to talk about and I'm very glad to

26
00:01:00,049 --> 00:00:58,379
say the only one I reached out to and

27
00:01:02,150 --> 00:01:00,059
the only one that you know replied they

28
00:01:04,250 --> 00:01:02,160
had to so yeah thanks for the green to

29
00:01:06,890 --> 00:01:04,260
come on and kind of stick in with it

30
00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:06,900
um listen your background Nadia how did

31
00:01:12,170 --> 00:01:09,900
you get involved eventually in the UFO

32
00:01:14,330 --> 00:01:12,180
topic do you have an interest in UFOs at

33
00:01:15,530 --> 00:01:14,340
all and how far does that back if you

34
00:01:18,289 --> 00:01:15,540
have one

35
00:01:20,570 --> 00:01:18,299
I have I would say I have an interest in

36
00:01:23,450 --> 00:01:20,580
looking for life beyond Earth regardless

37
00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:23,460
of how it might show up and so that's

38
00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:25,140
something that I've been

39
00:01:28,310 --> 00:01:26,880
focusing on

40
00:01:30,410 --> 00:01:28,320
um in my professional work as a

41
00:01:32,210 --> 00:01:30,420
journalist as you said I cover astronomy

42
00:01:35,090 --> 00:01:32,220
astrophysics planetary science a lot of

43
00:01:37,249 --> 00:01:35,100
that is astrobiology looking at the

44
00:01:39,350 --> 00:01:37,259
various ways that scientists are trying

45
00:01:40,609 --> 00:01:39,360
to answer the question are we alone in

46
00:01:44,270 --> 00:01:40,619
the universe

47
00:01:48,649 --> 00:01:44,280
and so I guess you know in a sense

48
00:01:51,350 --> 00:01:48,659
um UFOs could fall under that umbrella

49
00:01:53,810 --> 00:01:51,360
um but the topic itself I would say has

50
00:01:56,090 --> 00:01:53,820
been more of a it's been a phenomenon

51
00:01:57,170 --> 00:01:56,100
that I've observed kind of from the

52
00:01:58,730 --> 00:01:57,180
sidelines

53
00:02:01,310 --> 00:01:58,740
mostly

54
00:02:02,690 --> 00:02:01,320
and is that sensible do you think in

55
00:02:04,670 --> 00:02:02,700
that line of work when you hear

56
00:02:07,310 --> 00:02:04,680
astronomy astrophysics planetary science

57
00:02:09,770 --> 00:02:07,320
you think and I'm a geek so I can say

58
00:02:11,930 --> 00:02:09,780
this you think Geeks Star Trek Star Wars

59
00:02:14,270 --> 00:02:11,940
everyone's going to benefit your science

60
00:02:16,729 --> 00:02:14,280
fiction so you would imagine it would

61
00:02:18,589 --> 00:02:16,739
still be quite popular but does this is

62
00:02:21,290 --> 00:02:18,599
there still a stigma that holds people

63
00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:21,300
back from maybe proclaiming that love

64
00:02:26,390 --> 00:02:23,280
I think they're well there definitely is

65
00:02:27,650 --> 00:02:26,400
a stigma surrounding um the topic of we

66
00:02:29,210 --> 00:02:27,660
can call them UAP or you have whatever

67
00:02:32,390 --> 00:02:29,220
you want to call them

68
00:02:34,729 --> 00:02:32,400
um I am a huge science nerd science geek

69
00:02:37,010 --> 00:02:34,739
I love Star Trek Star Wars sci-fi it's

70
00:02:38,809 --> 00:02:37,020
all great

71
00:02:40,610 --> 00:02:38,819
um and I love some of the ways in which

72
00:02:41,809 --> 00:02:40,620
people imagine other worlds in the

73
00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:41,819
future

74
00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:43,260
um but certainly within the scientific

75
00:02:46,070 --> 00:02:44,640
Community I think there really is a

76
00:02:48,530 --> 00:02:46,080
stigma associated with thinking about

77
00:02:50,869 --> 00:02:48,540
UFOs UAP

78
00:02:52,910 --> 00:02:50,879
um from a scientific perspective and

79
00:02:54,170 --> 00:02:52,920
that is that has been a problem for some

80
00:02:56,449 --> 00:02:54,180
of my colleagues on the panel

81
00:02:58,009 --> 00:02:56,459
particularly the scientists

82
00:02:59,509 --> 00:02:58,019
um they were getting criticisms from

83
00:03:02,089 --> 00:02:59,519
other scientists within the community

84
00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:02,099
asking them you know why are you wasting

85
00:03:06,890 --> 00:03:03,840
your time looking at this what's the

86
00:03:08,390 --> 00:03:06,900
point so that certainly does exist

87
00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:08,400
we're going to get back to a little bit

88
00:03:12,410 --> 00:03:10,200
of that criticism as well when we look

89
00:03:14,470 --> 00:03:12,420
at the NASA study but it would be remiss

90
00:03:16,729 --> 00:03:14,480
to not talk about your father for anyone

91
00:03:19,250 --> 00:03:16,739
familiar with the name Drake in this

92
00:03:21,589 --> 00:03:19,260
field at your father Frank Drake is

93
00:03:23,750 --> 00:03:21,599
famously the flank Drake of Drake's

94
00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:23,760
equation and that's something I'm going

95
00:03:27,949 --> 00:03:25,560
to hand over to you if you could explain

96
00:03:29,690 --> 00:03:27,959
to anyone listening who most folks will

97
00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:29,700
have heard of it but what is the Drake

98
00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:31,140
equation

99
00:03:39,350 --> 00:03:37,500
um is really cool it's a formula that

100
00:03:41,690 --> 00:03:39,360
estimates how many detectable

101
00:03:44,630 --> 00:03:41,700
extraterrestrial civilizations are in

102
00:03:47,570 --> 00:03:44,640
the Milky Way galaxy and it does that by

103
00:03:49,729 --> 00:03:47,580
considering a handful of variables

104
00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:49,739
and essentially if you consider each

105
00:03:54,110 --> 00:03:51,840
variable and you give it a value you can

106
00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:54,120
multiply them all together and come up

107
00:03:57,589 --> 00:03:55,319
with an answer for how many

108
00:03:59,509 --> 00:03:57,599
civilizations we might be able to detect

109
00:04:01,729 --> 00:03:59,519
in the Milky Way

110
00:04:03,470 --> 00:04:01,739
um it's gotten some criticism because

111
00:04:05,570 --> 00:04:03,480
people say you know it's not really an

112
00:04:07,789 --> 00:04:05,580
equation it doesn't have constants it

113
00:04:09,949 --> 00:04:07,799
doesn't give you a single answer

114
00:04:12,050 --> 00:04:09,959
so the way I like to think about it is

115
00:04:14,289 --> 00:04:12,060
more as a framework it's a thought

116
00:04:17,629 --> 00:04:14,299
experiment I think it's a really great

117
00:04:20,030 --> 00:04:17,639
way to look at the logic involved in

118
00:04:22,250 --> 00:04:20,040
answering a question that's that big

119
00:04:23,950 --> 00:04:22,260
so you know if we want to know how many

120
00:04:26,390 --> 00:04:23,960
civilizations exist in the Milky Way

121
00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:26,400
what do we need to know to arrive at

122
00:04:30,590 --> 00:04:28,860
that answer and that's what Dad did was

123
00:04:32,629 --> 00:04:30,600
he started asking those questions what

124
00:04:34,249 --> 00:04:32,639
are the factors that are important and

125
00:04:37,249 --> 00:04:34,259
he got things like you know we need

126
00:04:39,230 --> 00:04:37,259
stars because planets exist around Stars

127
00:04:41,030 --> 00:04:39,240
we need to know how many

128
00:04:42,710 --> 00:04:41,040
you know the fraction of those stars

129
00:04:44,330 --> 00:04:42,720
that host planets how many habitable

130
00:04:46,990 --> 00:04:44,340
worlds there might be per planetary

131
00:04:49,070 --> 00:04:47,000
system how often life evolves how often

132
00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:49,080
civilizations develop detectable

133
00:04:52,670 --> 00:04:51,120
technologies that kind of thing so just

134
00:04:54,409 --> 00:04:52,680
like following

135
00:04:56,450 --> 00:04:54,419
following connecting the dots between

136
00:04:58,129 --> 00:04:56,460
asking the question and knowing what you

137
00:05:01,070 --> 00:04:58,139
need to know to get there

138
00:05:03,170 --> 00:05:01,080
famously Samuel L Jackson said that he

139
00:05:04,969 --> 00:05:03,180
gets almost daily people go up to him in

140
00:05:07,189 --> 00:05:04,979
the street and try and recite back his

141
00:05:08,870 --> 00:05:07,199
famous Pulp Fiction monologue and people

142
00:05:10,490 --> 00:05:08,880
never get it right and I just wonder how

143
00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:10,500
often your dad was approached and people

144
00:05:14,390 --> 00:05:12,900
would try and recite back that equation

145
00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:14,400
to him and either get a bit stronger

146
00:05:18,170 --> 00:05:15,860
leave bits out I've got my own

147
00:05:20,210 --> 00:05:18,180
horrendously bastardized version of it

148
00:05:22,550 --> 00:05:20,220
which is if there's this many you know

149
00:05:24,230 --> 00:05:22,560
solar systems and if those solar systems

150
00:05:26,330 --> 00:05:24,240
have stars and if so many of those stars

151
00:05:27,950 --> 00:05:26,340
have this and it just goes down that way

152
00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:27,960
and then essentially it's then there

153
00:05:31,730 --> 00:05:29,460
must be thousands of other civilizations

154
00:05:33,590 --> 00:05:31,740
out there which I'm sure your father

155
00:05:36,050 --> 00:05:33,600
would be ashamed of hearing but I'm sure

156
00:05:38,870 --> 00:05:36,060
he had far worse as well

157
00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:38,880
he was he was always amused by the fact

158
00:05:44,270 --> 00:05:42,120
that the equation was so recognizable

159
00:05:45,890 --> 00:05:44,280
um he was very very humble and so he

160
00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:45,900
never went around tooting his own horn

161
00:05:50,570 --> 00:05:48,780
he didn't think it was that interesting

162
00:05:53,270 --> 00:05:50,580
um and when he was writing the equation

163
00:05:55,670 --> 00:05:53,280
it was really just because he needed to

164
00:05:57,529 --> 00:05:55,680
organize the agenda for a meeting

165
00:05:58,909 --> 00:05:57,539
so he had all these people coming in for

166
00:06:01,010 --> 00:05:58,919
a meeting and he needed to figure out

167
00:06:03,590 --> 00:06:01,020
what to do for a couple of days

168
00:06:05,810 --> 00:06:03,600
and that's how the equation came about

169
00:06:08,689 --> 00:06:05,820
and and for him it was just super weird

170
00:06:11,029 --> 00:06:08,699
that even you know 50 or 60 years later

171
00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:11,039
it's on the side of a U-Haul Van in the

172
00:06:14,090 --> 00:06:12,900
states people are getting it tattooed on

173
00:06:16,010 --> 00:06:14,100
themselves

174
00:06:18,710 --> 00:06:16,020
um you know it's everywhere and

175
00:06:20,870 --> 00:06:18,720
uh yeah here's always amused by that

176
00:06:22,909 --> 00:06:20,880
well it's certainly the thing is is most

177
00:06:24,409 --> 00:06:22,919
well known by around the world and but

178
00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:24,419
to be fair and you see the measure of a

179
00:06:29,510 --> 00:06:26,580
man is those other things and I read on

180
00:06:31,370 --> 00:06:29,520
your site that he was a volunteer as a

181
00:06:33,170 --> 00:06:31,380
suicide prevention counselor as well for

182
00:06:34,730 --> 00:06:33,180
nine years and that was incredibly

183
00:06:36,230 --> 00:06:34,740
important to him so for anyone who

184
00:06:37,850 --> 00:06:36,240
didn't know that I think that just says

185
00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:37,860
a lot about the man himself and I wonder

186
00:06:42,350 --> 00:06:40,620
how does that equation and your father's

187
00:06:43,790 --> 00:06:42,360
work still play a role in your life

188
00:06:46,129 --> 00:06:43,800
today

189
00:06:48,529 --> 00:06:46,139
yeah well I just wanted to say that one

190
00:06:50,990 --> 00:06:48,539
of one of the things about Dad that

191
00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:51,000
I loved was if you asked him you know

192
00:06:54,590 --> 00:06:52,860
what do you think

193
00:06:57,469 --> 00:06:54,600
was the most important thing you ever

194
00:06:59,090 --> 00:06:57,479
did your most important contribution it

195
00:07:02,210 --> 00:06:59,100
was working for the suicide prevention

196
00:07:04,070 --> 00:07:02,220
crisis hotline it was not his science he

197
00:07:08,029 --> 00:07:04,080
he loved his science and he thought it

198
00:07:09,950 --> 00:07:08,039
was great but for him the real

199
00:07:12,770 --> 00:07:09,960
thing that he was the most proud of was

200
00:07:14,749 --> 00:07:12,780
was helping people and so

201
00:07:16,189 --> 00:07:14,759
that's something that I think is just a

202
00:07:17,749 --> 00:07:16,199
really beautiful part of his personality

203
00:07:19,309 --> 00:07:17,759
that maybe not a lot of people got to

204
00:07:20,990 --> 00:07:19,319
know about

205
00:07:22,909 --> 00:07:21,000
um but it is part of his personality

206
00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:22,919
that it has impacted

207
00:07:40,309 --> 00:07:37,909
I've had many people's pets uh make an

208
00:07:43,070 --> 00:07:40,319
appearance on the podcast so

209
00:07:44,089 --> 00:07:43,080
um I was gonna say so the funny thing is

210
00:07:45,950 --> 00:07:44,099
that

211
00:07:47,749 --> 00:07:45,960
you know I grew up with Frank Drake and

212
00:07:49,370 --> 00:07:47,759
I grew up kind of knowing what it was

213
00:07:51,230 --> 00:07:49,380
that he was interested in but I didn't

214
00:07:54,170 --> 00:07:51,240
have a very solid

215
00:07:56,510 --> 00:07:54,180
scientific framework or grounding in it

216
00:07:58,670 --> 00:07:56,520
until I started working as a reporter

217
00:08:00,230 --> 00:07:58,680
and until I started specializing in

218
00:08:02,150 --> 00:08:00,240
astronomy reporting and that was when I

219
00:08:04,490 --> 00:08:02,160
really started to learn about

220
00:08:06,770 --> 00:08:04,500
the questions that Dad was interested in

221
00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:06,780
and you know his impact on the field of

222
00:08:12,170 --> 00:08:09,180
astrobiology and also just how tricky it

223
00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:12,180
is to go about trying to figure out if

224
00:08:16,670 --> 00:08:14,460
Earth is the only populated planet in

225
00:08:18,710 --> 00:08:16,680
the cosmos you know how hard is that

226
00:08:20,450 --> 00:08:18,720
question to answer and it turns out it's

227
00:08:22,490 --> 00:08:20,460
hard

228
00:08:24,529 --> 00:08:22,500
well it seems like you have carved out

229
00:08:26,510 --> 00:08:24,539
your own unique Niche within this

230
00:08:29,029 --> 00:08:26,520
community uh at least the start of one

231
00:08:31,369 --> 00:08:29,039
and getting involved in the NASA study

232
00:08:32,690 --> 00:08:31,379
that was announced in 2022 back in

233
00:08:35,389 --> 00:08:32,700
October

234
00:08:37,550 --> 00:08:35,399
um the the purpose of the study confused

235
00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:37,560
a lot of folks or it was misunderstood

236
00:08:42,230 --> 00:08:40,380
and I don't think that's unfair given

237
00:08:45,230 --> 00:08:42,240
you know NASA loves a statement a press

238
00:08:47,389 --> 00:08:45,240
release and people say NASA UAP they're

239
00:08:49,009 --> 00:08:47,399
studying UAP they've got archives and

240
00:08:50,870 --> 00:08:49,019
they can go into the whole conspiracy

241
00:08:53,090 --> 00:08:50,880
around you know NASA's never a straight

242
00:08:54,530 --> 00:08:53,100
answer and all that good stuff but

243
00:08:56,269 --> 00:08:54,540
essentially we were trying to bring it

244
00:08:58,910 --> 00:08:56,279
into modern days and look at it as you

245
00:09:01,130 --> 00:08:58,920
know this is a day a day Zero for NASA

246
00:09:03,829 --> 00:09:01,140
and if you don't mind can you clear up

247
00:09:04,670 --> 00:09:03,839
what was the study and what was it meant

248
00:09:06,970 --> 00:09:04,680
to be

249
00:09:09,530 --> 00:09:06,980
yeah I think I think a lot of people

250
00:09:12,769 --> 00:09:09,540
when the initial press release came out

251
00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:12,779
in June of last year assumed that it was

252
00:09:17,570 --> 00:09:15,420
going to be something else entirely

253
00:09:19,970 --> 00:09:17,580
um I think a lot of people made the

254
00:09:23,329 --> 00:09:19,980
assumption that we were going to be

255
00:09:26,150 --> 00:09:23,339
digging into case reports coming up with

256
00:09:28,070 --> 00:09:26,160
some kind of conclusion about the nature

257
00:09:30,350 --> 00:09:28,080
and origin of UAP when that wasn't

258
00:09:33,290 --> 00:09:30,360
that's not the point at all

259
00:09:36,710 --> 00:09:33,300
um the point is to come up with a road

260
00:09:40,009 --> 00:09:36,720
map that NASA can follow if the agency

261
00:09:42,170 --> 00:09:40,019
wants to look at UAP scientifically

262
00:09:43,850 --> 00:09:42,180
and so we have a statement of task

263
00:09:47,090 --> 00:09:43,860
there's you know eight or nine questions

264
00:09:48,050 --> 00:09:47,100
I always forget the number and they are

265
00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:48,060
asking us to come up with

266
00:09:52,610 --> 00:09:49,800
recommendations about

267
00:09:55,009 --> 00:09:52,620
which data sets already exist that NASA

268
00:09:57,829 --> 00:09:55,019
might be able to work with what kinds of

269
00:09:59,750 --> 00:09:57,839
data could the agency gather that would

270
00:10:02,570 --> 00:09:59,760
maybe be informative when it comes to

271
00:10:04,670 --> 00:10:02,580
studying UAP what sorts of reporting

272
00:10:07,130 --> 00:10:04,680
procedures could be implemented to kind

273
00:10:07,970 --> 00:10:07,140
of standardize the reports that do come

274
00:10:13,310 --> 00:10:07,980
in

275
00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:13,320
to tackle this

276
00:10:17,090 --> 00:10:15,060
um you know here are our recommendations

277
00:10:18,710 --> 00:10:17,100
for some of the ways that that they

278
00:10:21,470 --> 00:10:18,720
might be able to proceed

279
00:10:23,449 --> 00:10:21,480
so I'm curious why did NASA need an

280
00:10:27,170 --> 00:10:23,459
independent team to come in and do that

281
00:10:28,850 --> 00:10:27,180
for them I think there are many who

282
00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:28,860
would look at Nasa as being one of The

283
00:10:33,290 --> 00:10:31,740
Gatekeepers of the whole UFO secret and

284
00:10:35,449 --> 00:10:33,300
that they have enough footage and that

285
00:10:37,610 --> 00:10:35,459
are incredibly vast archives and servers

286
00:10:39,590 --> 00:10:37,620
going back decades that would have all

287
00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:39,600
the evidence required so what's the

288
00:10:42,350 --> 00:10:41,040
reason they brought in an independent

289
00:10:44,090 --> 00:10:42,360
study

290
00:10:45,710 --> 00:10:44,100
well I think you know the reason is

291
00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:45,720
because all of what you just said about

292
00:10:50,269 --> 00:10:48,660
having servers and Decades of data and

293
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:50,279
videos that's that's a very nice

294
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:51,600
fictional statement

295
00:10:57,110 --> 00:10:54,240
so so NASA does not have that

296
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,120
information available and the agency

297
00:11:01,370 --> 00:10:59,279
often when it's looking for

298
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,380
recommendations on a particular topic

299
00:11:06,650 --> 00:11:03,600
they will convene an independent panel

300
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:06,660
of experts to to offer an opinion on how

301
00:11:11,030 --> 00:11:09,600
they might best go about proceeding

302
00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:11,040
um it's all it's really good for

303
00:11:15,170 --> 00:11:13,260
transparency too so

304
00:11:16,610 --> 00:11:15,180
actually it's not uncommon this has been

305
00:11:18,710 --> 00:11:16,620
done before but obviously it's the first

306
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:18,720
time those with a UFO interest are

307
00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:20,160
paying that's close attention so that's

308
00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:22,140
that's good to know yeah that's exactly

309
00:11:24,590 --> 00:11:23,880
right it's not an unusual procedure at

310
00:11:28,310 --> 00:11:24,600
all

311
00:11:32,030 --> 00:11:28,320
in this study

312
00:11:34,970 --> 00:11:32,040
I was invited to be on the panel

313
00:11:36,949 --> 00:11:34,980
um by by NASA one day I just got an

314
00:11:38,990 --> 00:11:36,959
email asking if I would be

315
00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:39,000
willing to serve

316
00:11:43,190 --> 00:11:40,980
um and kind of laying out you know again

317
00:11:44,530 --> 00:11:43,200
what what the charter is what that would

318
00:11:46,910 --> 00:11:44,540
involve

319
00:11:49,430 --> 00:11:46,920
ultimately we're going to be writing a

320
00:11:51,470 --> 00:11:49,440
report that will be delivered sometime

321
00:11:53,930 --> 00:11:51,480
this summer and that will also be made

322
00:11:56,509 --> 00:11:53,940
public too and so

323
00:11:59,509 --> 00:11:56,519
um yeah I was just invited to be on it

324
00:12:00,829 --> 00:11:59,519
when you got that email was it I guess

325
00:12:02,030 --> 00:12:00,839
straight away was it something you had

326
00:12:03,170 --> 00:12:02,040
to think about what was kind of going

327
00:12:04,730 --> 00:12:03,180
through your head

328
00:12:06,949 --> 00:12:04,740
foreign

329
00:12:09,710 --> 00:12:06,959
I gave it some thought

330
00:12:12,530 --> 00:12:09,720
um I needed to be

331
00:12:14,509 --> 00:12:12,540
really clear on

332
00:12:16,850 --> 00:12:14,519
you know my role as a journalist I often

333
00:12:19,069 --> 00:12:16,860
cover NASA that's that was a lot of what

334
00:12:20,990 --> 00:12:19,079
I was doing and so I needed to make sure

335
00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:21,000
that I could preserve

336
00:12:24,350 --> 00:12:22,740
um you know the barrier between my job

337
00:12:27,350 --> 00:12:24,360
and serving on this panel making sure

338
00:12:29,449 --> 00:12:27,360
that I could keep them very very far

339
00:12:31,069 --> 00:12:29,459
apart from one another so that was where

340
00:12:32,509 --> 00:12:31,079
most of my consideration went I thought

341
00:12:34,190 --> 00:12:32,519
it was a really interesting topic I

342
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:34,200
thought it was

343
00:12:39,050 --> 00:12:36,720
I was very curious about why NASA was

344
00:12:41,810 --> 00:12:39,060
initially doing this and so I figured

345
00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:41,820
this was really the best way to find out

346
00:12:46,009 --> 00:12:43,740
um I wanted to know what it was like to

347
00:12:47,329 --> 00:12:46,019
serve on one of these panels and to to

348
00:12:50,329 --> 00:12:47,339
Really also get to know the other

349
00:12:52,190 --> 00:12:50,339
panelists who are incredible

350
00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:52,200
um it's a really cool group of people

351
00:12:56,629 --> 00:12:54,660
and we're friends and colleagues at all

352
00:12:58,009 --> 00:12:56,639
curious as to what was happening was

353
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:58,019
that a lot of canal like you know so

354
00:13:01,490 --> 00:12:59,519
you're going to be studying UFOs for

355
00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:01,500
NASA is that what the chat was

356
00:13:06,350 --> 00:13:04,620
yeah there was a lot of that

357
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:06,360
um you know the phrase I think the

358
00:13:12,350 --> 00:13:09,360
phrase UFO Hunters was in a lot of

359
00:13:14,389 --> 00:13:12,360
headlines describing the initial send

360
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:14,399
shovers down my spine when I see her you

361
00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:16,560
know that so yeah yeah

362
00:13:19,550 --> 00:13:18,060
yeah

363
00:13:20,930 --> 00:13:19,560
um so it's you know a lot of what I've

364
00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:20,940
been doing over the last seven or eight

365
00:13:24,769 --> 00:13:22,620
months has just been kind of disabusing

366
00:13:27,050 --> 00:13:24,779
people of the notion that we are UFO

367
00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:27,060
hunting that's that's not our job it's

368
00:13:31,310 --> 00:13:29,639
not what we're doing and

369
00:13:33,290 --> 00:13:31,320
we're going to tell NASA how to do that

370
00:13:35,930 --> 00:13:33,300
if they want to

371
00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:35,940
yeah well listen obviously we'll fast

372
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:37,800
forward to the point where the we had

373
00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:40,800
the NASA live broadcast a couple of

374
00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:43,220
weeks ago as we record this now and

375
00:13:47,389 --> 00:13:45,600
fascinating I saw the viewers on the

376
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:47,399
channel jump from a thousand to one and

377
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:48,720
a half to seven and a half to eight

378
00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:50,399
thousand to nine thousand to ten

379
00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:52,260
thousand so there was a huge amount of

380
00:13:56,870 --> 00:13:54,600
interest and just a live broadcast in

381
00:13:58,430 --> 00:13:56,880
itself bear in mind this happened like a

382
00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:58,440
two o'clock in the afternoon three

383
00:14:02,329 --> 00:14:00,600
o'clock in the UK people are at work it

384
00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:02,339
was busy it was a midweek in the US

385
00:14:06,769 --> 00:14:04,440
that's early morning depending on your

386
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:06,779
Coast it's even earlier morning there's

387
00:14:11,449 --> 00:14:09,120
a lot of interest in it disappointingly

388
00:14:13,850 --> 00:14:11,459
though but not unsurprisingly it opened

389
00:14:15,889 --> 00:14:13,860
with a mention of the abuse that had

390
00:14:17,990 --> 00:14:15,899
been aimed at the panel I was in the

391
00:14:19,670 --> 00:14:18,000
Discord chat for the podcast at the time

392
00:14:21,949 --> 00:14:19,680
and I mentioned to you before we started

393
00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:21,959
recording a lot of the people in the

394
00:14:26,269 --> 00:14:24,060
Discord were again shocked but not

395
00:14:28,370 --> 00:14:26,279
surprised that you'd received abuse and

396
00:14:29,870 --> 00:14:28,380
I'd like to ask though where where was

397
00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:29,880
the abuse coming from did it seem to

398
00:14:33,470 --> 00:14:32,220
come from the UFO Community was it

399
00:14:36,850 --> 00:14:33,480
scientific community

400
00:14:39,650 --> 00:14:36,860
your Your Standard Online troll

401
00:14:41,990 --> 00:14:39,660
yeah so I think

402
00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:42,000
um what I can say and I don't want to

403
00:14:45,769 --> 00:14:43,560
you know violate anyone's privacy is

404
00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:45,779
that there there were criticisms coming

405
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:48,600
from within the science community

406
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,880
um you know really just questioning why

407
00:14:55,189 --> 00:14:52,800
people were spending their time on this

408
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,199
I had made that comment before

409
00:15:00,970 --> 00:14:57,120
um but I think what NASA was referring

410
00:15:03,769 --> 00:15:00,980
to in those statements were

411
00:15:06,050 --> 00:15:03,779
harassment and abuse coming from

412
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:06,060
um UFO Twitter in particular has been

413
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:08,880
very loud and very angry uh with a

414
00:15:12,889 --> 00:15:10,800
couple of us not just me

415
00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:12,899
um I know that I have definitely been a

416
00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:15,660
target for a lot of it and so

417
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:16,740
um

418
00:15:22,610 --> 00:15:20,040
yeah it's been coming from a from a

419
00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:22,620
couple of different different areas

420
00:15:29,269 --> 00:15:26,060
why do you think that was

421
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:29,279
for me I I know why it is

422
00:15:33,230 --> 00:15:31,980
um well probably a couple of reasons you

423
00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:33,240
know one

424
00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:36,360
is I have gone on record Being skeptical

425
00:15:41,150 --> 00:15:39,480
about the evidence that's been presented

426
00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:41,160
so far

427
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:43,740
um and that is is not something that

428
00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:44,639
people

429
00:15:48,410 --> 00:15:46,980
appreciate I guess would be one way to

430
00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:48,420
put it

431
00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:51,839
um that's part of it I think in a way

432
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:54,060
it's a lot of a lot of what I've been

433
00:15:58,610 --> 00:15:55,980
getting is very misogynistic

434
00:16:01,550 --> 00:15:58,620
so probably having a woman challenging

435
00:16:04,730 --> 00:16:01,560
your ideas your beliefs you know your

436
00:16:07,250 --> 00:16:04,740
notion of reality is can be very makes

437
00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:07,260
it makes people very angry

438
00:16:10,310 --> 00:16:08,279
um

439
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:10,320
so some of my other panelists have been

440
00:16:15,110 --> 00:16:13,019
getting noise from similar groups but

441
00:16:19,009 --> 00:16:15,120
without that particular element to it

442
00:16:21,949 --> 00:16:19,019
yeah so that's part of it and

443
00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:21,959
yeah I don't know I tend to I tend to

444
00:16:28,009 --> 00:16:25,260
look at conversations about you know the

445
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:28,019
origin of of UFOs as being

446
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:29,519
kind of like trying to argue about

447
00:16:32,689 --> 00:16:31,199
religion with somebody like you don't

448
00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:32,699
you're not really going to get that far

449
00:16:38,810 --> 00:16:35,279
so I I generally tend not to engage in

450
00:16:40,370 --> 00:16:38,820
it yeah it's better to just let people

451
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:40,380
have their beliefs and and I will have

452
00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:41,519
mine

453
00:16:45,769 --> 00:16:43,920
100 and I've said as much on here as

454
00:16:47,329 --> 00:16:45,779
well that none of us actually know at

455
00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:47,339
the end of the day you know what is real

456
00:16:52,670 --> 00:16:50,040
what isn't real is it uh CGI well is it

457
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,680
no one knows what a real sorcerel maybe

458
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:54,240
a handful of people may know what a real

459
00:16:58,189 --> 00:16:55,980
sorcer looks like after the some of the

460
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,199
news from this week but we don't know

461
00:17:02,150 --> 00:16:59,759
and it's just to have that debate make

462
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:02,160
sure it's healthy argue you know with

463
00:17:05,630 --> 00:17:03,600
someone but can make sure it's you know

464
00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:05,640
in the best spirits and at the end of

465
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:07,020
the day if you have to disagree to

466
00:17:12,110 --> 00:17:09,900
disagree then you can move on if not the

467
00:17:15,590 --> 00:17:12,120
mute and block button are your friends

468
00:17:17,210 --> 00:17:15,600
as I've said to many many many folks

469
00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:17,220
um your your timeline can be exactly

470
00:17:20,929 --> 00:17:19,199
what you need it to be obviously like

471
00:17:23,150 --> 00:17:20,939
yourself Nadia you're coming into this

472
00:17:25,549 --> 00:17:23,160
kind of fresh to the UFO Community

473
00:17:28,429 --> 00:17:25,559
putting yourself out there so you don't

474
00:17:30,409 --> 00:17:28,439
know the some of the key players the

475
00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:30,419
bigger names the bigger channels and

476
00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:32,100
blogs or whatever it may be bigger

477
00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:34,140
commentators until you kind of come

478
00:17:38,570 --> 00:17:35,580
across that so it's disappointing that

479
00:17:40,190 --> 00:17:38,580
happened at all but I sadly it's not

480
00:17:42,590 --> 00:17:40,200
unsurprising we saw Avila web

481
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:42,600
astrophysicist from Harvard get abuse

482
00:17:46,730 --> 00:17:44,160
from some of the scientific community on

483
00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:46,740
on Zoom calls um a few a few years ago

484
00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:49,620
now for daring to discuss maybe an

485
00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:51,840
interplanetary body and his thoughts so

486
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:53,700
it's nice to see though that we've got

487
00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:57,120
academics scientists level-headed folks

488
00:18:01,130 --> 00:17:59,100
coming in and I think those with a

489
00:18:02,810 --> 00:18:01,140
skeptical view can be some of the best

490
00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:02,820
folks to invite into the conversation

491
00:18:06,650 --> 00:18:03,960
because

492
00:18:08,450 --> 00:18:06,660
F someone with a skeptical mindset can

493
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:08,460
find something they feel is truly

494
00:18:13,310 --> 00:18:10,559
anomalous that's better than someone

495
00:18:15,169 --> 00:18:13,320
like me finding it because I'm going to

496
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:15,179
want to find that and potentially you've

497
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:17,039
got folks who don't want to find it so

498
00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:18,960
I'm not saying you don't want to I

499
00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:20,940
imagine the way you come across you

500
00:18:24,350 --> 00:18:22,500
would love to come across that piece of

501
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:24,360
evidence that wow this is something

502
00:18:29,630 --> 00:18:27,360
truly unique yes oh yeah and that's part

503
00:18:32,510 --> 00:18:29,640
of what's so frustrating to me is that

504
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:32,520
um and I said this in my remarks during

505
00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:35,700
the the meeting but like skepticism is

506
00:18:40,669 --> 00:18:39,120
not a bad thing to have if you're trying

507
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:40,679
to prove the existence of something

508
00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:43,440
that's really truly extraordinary you

509
00:18:46,970 --> 00:18:45,000
want to be doing that through the lens

510
00:18:49,070 --> 00:18:46,980
of skepticism otherwise nobody's gonna

511
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:49,080
believe you right like how well is that

512
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:50,160
going

513
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:52,799
for the community so far

514
00:18:55,730 --> 00:18:54,240
um and I think you know one of the

515
00:18:59,150 --> 00:18:55,740
points I want to make here is that

516
00:19:00,110 --> 00:18:59,160
everyone on the panel has a very open

517
00:19:03,049 --> 00:19:00,120
mind

518
00:19:05,330 --> 00:19:03,059
when it comes to looking at data and

519
00:19:07,970 --> 00:19:05,340
following the data where I take a where

520
00:19:10,730 --> 00:19:07,980
it takes us and I think that's that's a

521
00:19:12,890 --> 00:19:10,740
really important thing and so you know

522
00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:12,900
it's been frustrating to me about

523
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:14,520
some of the accused that I've been

524
00:19:18,529 --> 00:19:16,799
getting is like these people don't seem

525
00:19:21,169 --> 00:19:18,539
to have an open mind they don't seem

526
00:19:24,169 --> 00:19:21,179
like they're willing to learn

527
00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:24,179
um but I am and my goodness like nobody

528
00:19:28,730 --> 00:19:26,400
would be more excited to find something

529
00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:28,740
really cool in the data than I would be

530
00:19:33,289 --> 00:19:31,559
right well I mean maybe but I would be

531
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:33,299
psyched like that would be really really

532
00:19:37,010 --> 00:19:34,799
cool

533
00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:38,870
so let you know what and there's nothing

534
00:19:42,110 --> 00:19:40,380
wrong like you say with being skeptical

535
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,120
I've got listeners to the podcast again

536
00:19:46,130 --> 00:19:44,400
even as as recent as today in the

537
00:19:47,810 --> 00:19:46,140
Discord chat saying that they're they're

538
00:19:49,909 --> 00:19:47,820
pretty skeptical on the subject but

539
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,919
that's fine you should be skeptical just

540
00:19:54,049 --> 00:19:51,840
given what we're talking about I think

541
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,059
people confuse that sometimes with those

542
00:19:58,970 --> 00:19:56,000
who want to go out there and debunk

543
00:20:00,710 --> 00:19:58,980
everything they see just because they're

544
00:20:02,750 --> 00:20:00,720
not that interested in hearing about

545
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:02,760
what UFOs may or may not be but that's

546
00:20:06,770 --> 00:20:05,039
that's a different conversation I'd love

547
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:06,780
to know as much as you can see Nadia

548
00:20:11,330 --> 00:20:09,000
what was the work like what was your

549
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,340
average day like in the last kind of six

550
00:20:15,289 --> 00:20:13,440
seven eight months of the actual study

551
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:15,299
where you're going into an office nine

552
00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:17,160
till five and putting through paperwork

553
00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:20,460
or or what was it thank goodness no

554
00:20:24,890 --> 00:20:23,580
um we all have day jobs so that would

555
00:20:26,570 --> 00:20:24,900
have been tricky

556
00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:26,580
um no we had a handful of in-person

557
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:28,500
meetings where they were all

558
00:20:33,470 --> 00:20:30,900
fact-finding sessions so we had invited

559
00:20:35,090 --> 00:20:33,480
some folks to come speak to us to

560
00:20:38,510 --> 00:20:35,100
present information

561
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:38,520
um on the topic on various

562
00:20:44,150 --> 00:20:41,760
um observational capabilities so you

563
00:20:45,470 --> 00:20:44,160
know what are some of the NASA assets

564
00:20:49,130 --> 00:20:45,480
that are looking at Earth all the time

565
00:20:50,870 --> 00:20:49,140
how can we maybe think about adapting

566
00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:50,880
um Technologies like the Vera Ruben

567
00:20:54,169 --> 00:20:52,860
Observatory that's being built in the

568
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:54,179
southern hemisphere now that's going to

569
00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:56,460
look at you know the entire Sky how

570
00:20:59,390 --> 00:20:57,720
could we

571
00:21:02,270 --> 00:20:59,400
think about something like that maybe

572
00:21:03,830 --> 00:21:02,280
being applied to this to this problem

573
00:21:06,350 --> 00:21:03,840
um so we had a couple of those meetings

574
00:21:09,049 --> 00:21:06,360
in person we had some virtually

575
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:09,059
um and then we had the public meeting in

576
00:21:13,789 --> 00:21:10,799
DC which was really the first time where

577
00:21:16,909 --> 00:21:13,799
we started to you know have a debate

578
00:21:19,310 --> 00:21:16,919
amongst us as a panel about what some of

579
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:19,320
these recommendations ought to be moving

580
00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:20,400
forward

581
00:21:22,909 --> 00:21:21,419
um

582
00:21:24,830 --> 00:21:22,919
and I think you know obviously what you

583
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,840
heard there was the big takeaway is that

584
00:21:30,230 --> 00:21:27,360
the the data that we need to

585
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:30,240
make any conclusions about the nature

586
00:21:33,470 --> 00:21:32,280
and origins of UAP are just not there

587
00:21:35,450 --> 00:21:33,480
yet

588
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:35,460
um which I know is is also a frustrating

589
00:21:38,270 --> 00:21:36,720
statement

590
00:21:39,529 --> 00:21:38,280
um that that's that's kind of where we

591
00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:39,539
landed

592
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:43,020
during the your piece you mentioned you

593
00:21:47,450 --> 00:21:45,000
were the first speaker to come up from

594
00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:47,460
the panel after Dr Sean Patrick from

595
00:21:52,430 --> 00:21:49,380
Arrow and you mentioned that the

596
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:52,440
definition of UAP changed from Ariel to

597
00:21:56,870 --> 00:21:54,960
anomalous during the study and the panel

598
00:21:58,970 --> 00:21:56,880
had decided to continue to focus on

599
00:22:01,850 --> 00:21:58,980
Ariel because that's the primary domain

600
00:22:03,890 --> 00:22:01,860
for the data that you had presented if

601
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,900
you've got any thoughts so on the other

602
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:06,000
aspects of this phenomenon many people

603
00:22:11,090 --> 00:22:08,159
would point to you know things way out

604
00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:11,100
in space potentially or even underwater

605
00:22:17,750 --> 00:22:15,240
yeah so I um I had made that point that

606
00:22:18,649 --> 00:22:17,760
the the definition changed

607
00:22:20,450 --> 00:22:18,659
um

608
00:22:22,190 --> 00:22:20,460
and I had said that we were choosing to

609
00:22:24,890 --> 00:22:22,200
focus on the aerial domain because that

610
00:22:27,409 --> 00:22:24,900
is where the vast majority of the events

611
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:27,419
at least the um you know the ultimate

612
00:22:31,730 --> 00:22:29,700
anomaly resolution office has collected

613
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:31,740
are and I think Sean actually said that

614
00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:33,840
that's where they all are

615
00:22:37,490 --> 00:22:35,820
um and then David grinspoon who's an

616
00:22:39,049 --> 00:22:37,500
astrobiologist on the panel pushed back

617
00:22:41,570 --> 00:22:39,059
on that and said well actually I think

618
00:22:43,310 --> 00:22:41,580
we do want to consider the space domain

619
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:43,320
as well because you know the more we get

620
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:44,880
into this into space the more this

621
00:22:50,810 --> 00:22:48,480
becomes really a NASA issue and so

622
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:50,820
um I think that's totally valid totally

623
00:22:53,149 --> 00:22:51,780
valid

624
00:22:54,649 --> 00:22:53,159
um I don't know if you heard Sean say

625
00:22:56,029 --> 00:22:54,659
during the meeting it was he was

626
00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:56,039
answering a question but he said he'd

627
00:23:02,450 --> 00:22:58,320
managed to get rid of the underwater

628
00:23:03,110 --> 00:23:02,460
report it was explained some other way

629
00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:03,120
um

630
00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:06,240
so I think Dr Kirkpatrick said they were

631
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:08,100
called scps someone else's problem

632
00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:10,500
famously a few weeks ago during a live

633
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,600
broadcast as well to uh Senator

634
00:23:17,390 --> 00:23:14,640
Christian gillibrand so yeah interest in

635
00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:17,400
terminology but fair enough

636
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:21,080
I like Sean he has a hard hard job

637
00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:24,179
his job is hard and it comes across as

638
00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:26,760
very dry and my limited uh you know

639
00:23:30,409 --> 00:23:28,320
interactions being a couple of live

640
00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:30,419
broadcasts I've seen him presenting on

641
00:23:34,789 --> 00:23:32,760
um I'm going to ask you actually just to

642
00:23:36,409 --> 00:23:34,799
go back one step you mentioned the data

643
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:36,419
I was said to be either incomplete or

644
00:23:40,370 --> 00:23:37,980
inconclusive and that was the big

645
00:23:48,289 --> 00:23:40,380
takeaway is that what you expected going

646
00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:50,870
had mentioned which is that

647
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:53,580
if you want to address this topic

648
00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:55,320
scientifically you need data that's

649
00:23:58,789 --> 00:23:56,820
gathered with well-calibrated

650
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:58,799
instruments using well-established

651
00:24:05,210 --> 00:24:01,440
methodologies and that hasn't happened

652
00:24:09,529 --> 00:24:05,220
and so um that that's why and with

653
00:24:11,990 --> 00:24:09,539
something like this where you know truly

654
00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:12,000
the answer could be so profound you you

655
00:24:15,950 --> 00:24:13,740
want to make sure that you're that

656
00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:15,960
you're approaching it carefully

657
00:24:19,730 --> 00:24:17,100
um

658
00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:19,740
so so that was expected

659
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:20,640
um

660
00:24:25,610 --> 00:24:23,340
I think

661
00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:25,620
what I wasn't quite

662
00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:27,059
I had actually and this is an

663
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:28,860
interesting point too that came up

664
00:24:31,909 --> 00:24:30,000
um

665
00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:31,919
I when I went into the study I didn't

666
00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:34,320
really understand why some reports were

667
00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:35,940
classified and why

668
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:37,460
um some were not

669
00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:40,440
and we got a lot of blowback from people

670
00:24:43,190 --> 00:24:41,580
who are saying well you're only looking

671
00:24:44,630 --> 00:24:43,200
at the unclassified data what could

672
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:44,640
possibly be interesting and there all

673
00:24:48,230 --> 00:24:46,260
the good stuff is classified

674
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:48,240
and I think we heard during the meeting

675
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,400
that you know the reason that some

676
00:24:54,649 --> 00:24:52,559
reports are classified is not because of

677
00:24:56,990 --> 00:24:54,659
what they show but because of the sensor

678
00:24:58,970 --> 00:24:57,000
that made the report and we don't

679
00:25:01,789 --> 00:24:58,980
necessarily want people to know about

680
00:25:03,289 --> 00:25:01,799
the observational capabilities that some

681
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:03,299
of our sensors have and so like that's

682
00:25:08,330 --> 00:25:06,000
also a really pretty boring reason for

683
00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:08,340
things to be classified and you know

684
00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:09,900
they made the analogy about the Statue

685
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:11,640
of Liberty that

686
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:13,200
you would classify a picture of the

687
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:14,700
Statue of Liberty if it were taken with

688
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,260
a classified sensor

689
00:25:21,409 --> 00:25:18,720
and that was interesting for me because

690
00:25:24,850 --> 00:25:21,419
I just I hadn't known Matt going in

691
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:27,110
that's a really fair point and something

692
00:25:30,890 --> 00:25:28,799
I've talked about on the podcast before

693
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:30,900
where the water with that one's been

694
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:32,340
muddied a little bit in the last few

695
00:25:37,730 --> 00:25:35,279
months was the Chinese Bible incident

696
00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:37,740
where they released a very clear picture

697
00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:39,900
of a balloon very high up and everyone

698
00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:41,580
was like ah so the UFO pictures must

699
00:25:45,230 --> 00:25:43,500
look that good and that came out rather

700
00:25:48,169 --> 00:25:45,240
quickly and then they mentioned it shot

701
00:25:49,730 --> 00:25:48,179
down to other quote-unquote balloons but

702
00:25:51,649 --> 00:25:49,740
wouldn't release the pictures of those

703
00:25:54,409 --> 00:25:51,659
which got people questioning you know

704
00:25:55,789 --> 00:25:54,419
why isn't those coming out so I I get

705
00:25:58,190 --> 00:25:55,799
that and also there's that General

706
00:25:59,810 --> 00:25:58,200
distrust of the government but when you

707
00:26:01,370 --> 00:25:59,820
chose to believe the government and

708
00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:01,380
we're not they can also be a bit of a

709
00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:04,020
tricky subject as well so but it's UFOs

710
00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:05,940
it's the whole world of and what you're

711
00:26:10,010 --> 00:26:07,620
going into like you say is is that

712
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:10,020
classified unclassified data classified

713
00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:12,539
sensor systems and that's something

714
00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:14,820
people in the UFO Community know a

715
00:26:18,529 --> 00:26:16,500
little or a lot about depending on who

716
00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:18,539
you talk to you mentioned Dr Sean

717
00:26:21,710 --> 00:26:20,760
Patrick who is the head of Arrow at the

718
00:26:24,529 --> 00:26:21,720
moment

719
00:26:27,110 --> 00:26:24,539
um he has said and others that there is

720
00:26:30,590 --> 00:26:27,120
no credible evidence to point to any of

721
00:26:33,470 --> 00:26:30,600
those UAP events being looked at uh for

722
00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:33,480
being of E.T origin and I wonder for you

723
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:35,940
what would credible evidence look like

724
00:26:39,830 --> 00:26:37,980
because I'm one of those really nitpicky

725
00:26:41,750 --> 00:26:39,840
people that when Dr Kirkpatrick said

726
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:41,760
that I said well he's not saying no

727
00:26:47,390 --> 00:26:43,919
evidence he said no credible evidence so

728
00:26:49,549 --> 00:26:47,400
in 2023 what does credible evidence of

729
00:26:51,649 --> 00:26:49,559
ET look like

730
00:26:54,289 --> 00:26:51,659
well I think

731
00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:54,299
I don't I don't actually know

732
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,860
um for the simple reason that I don't

733
00:27:00,890 --> 00:26:57,360
know what

734
00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:00,900
an ET might look like which is also a

735
00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:03,480
really boring answer but um I mean what

736
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:05,400
I would want to see are observations

737
00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:08,159
again made with instruments that were

738
00:27:12,409 --> 00:27:10,200
calibrated for the purposes that they

739
00:27:14,810 --> 00:27:12,419
were being used for

740
00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:14,820
um you know multi-spectral observations

741
00:27:20,690 --> 00:27:17,220
of the same object potentially you know

742
00:27:22,669 --> 00:27:20,700
made by multiple people where we have

743
00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:22,679
data from sensors that matches

744
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,740
eyewitness reports and then after that

745
00:27:30,110 --> 00:27:27,600
that's just the beginning right so

746
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:30,120
that's that's step one and then after

747
00:27:33,649 --> 00:27:31,740
that you go and you interrogate all of

748
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:33,659
that and say well

749
00:27:39,230 --> 00:27:36,960
in the search for life beyond Earth

750
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:39,240
um you know life is the hypothesis of

751
00:27:43,789 --> 00:27:42,240
Last Resort you have to systematically

752
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:43,799
rule out everything else that something

753
00:27:47,930 --> 00:27:45,360
could possibly be

754
00:27:49,730 --> 00:27:47,940
before you look at that answer and so

755
00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:49,740
you know what else could this possibly

756
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:52,200
be what we've seen

757
00:27:57,230 --> 00:27:54,320
um you know even during even the meeting

758
00:27:58,970 --> 00:27:57,240
we saw some videos that looked like they

759
00:28:03,529 --> 00:27:58,980
were showing objects behaving very very

760
00:28:04,909 --> 00:28:03,539
weirdly but the explanations were you

761
00:28:07,130 --> 00:28:04,919
know this is just the way that the

762
00:28:08,529 --> 00:28:07,140
sensor was moving or this object looks

763
00:28:11,450 --> 00:28:08,539
like it's moving really quickly because

764
00:28:14,269 --> 00:28:11,460
the plane that was looking at it is

765
00:28:17,029 --> 00:28:14,279
going 430 miles an hour so that you know

766
00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:17,039
the sensor is moving really quickly

767
00:28:20,990 --> 00:28:19,140
um so can we rule out sensor artifacts

768
00:28:22,669 --> 00:28:21,000
can we rule out like what what do we

769
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:22,679
need to rule out before we can say all

770
00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:26,159
right like we have landed at a point

771
00:28:30,649 --> 00:28:27,240
where

772
00:28:33,890 --> 00:28:30,659
you know really life is a possibility

773
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:33,900
I wouldn't like to be cool very cool and

774
00:28:36,529 --> 00:28:35,100
I wouldn't want you to speak for the

775
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:36,539
panel obviously as well because that's

776
00:28:40,909 --> 00:28:39,000
those those individual opinions but does

777
00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:40,919
that also go for the rest of the panel

778
00:28:45,950 --> 00:28:43,860
that what credible evidence would look

779
00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:45,960
like but all do you all agree it has to

780
00:28:49,549 --> 00:28:47,880
be the same thing or could you have

781
00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:49,559
folks there saying actually I'd be

782
00:28:53,630 --> 00:28:51,360
happier I'd be happy with this I would

783
00:28:55,730 --> 00:28:53,640
settle for x y and z

784
00:28:57,470 --> 00:28:55,740
yeah I think there probably are going to

785
00:29:00,110 --> 00:28:57,480
be a range of opinions and you know mine

786
00:29:02,690 --> 00:29:00,120
mine here is probably not the the most

787
00:29:04,909 --> 00:29:02,700
informed or the most expert

788
00:29:07,070 --> 00:29:04,919
um I can speak about science from the

789
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:07,080
perspective of someone who has a PHD but

790
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,360
my expertise is not in instrumentation

791
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:11,279
or

792
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:15,840
how you might even pull an anomaly out

793
00:29:20,570 --> 00:29:18,600
of a very large data set

794
00:29:22,909 --> 00:29:20,580
um so some of the folks who are looking

795
00:29:24,769 --> 00:29:22,919
at machine learning

796
00:29:26,990 --> 00:29:24,779
um AI like they would probably have a

797
00:29:28,250 --> 00:29:27,000
very different answer about or maybe not

798
00:29:29,990 --> 00:29:28,260
a very different answer but just a

799
00:29:32,570 --> 00:29:30,000
different answer about what form

800
00:29:34,730 --> 00:29:32,580
evidence could take

801
00:29:36,769 --> 00:29:34,740
well you you said that I'm going to

802
00:29:39,649 --> 00:29:36,779
paraphrase here almost quote you that

803
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:39,659
each day the FAA handles are in 45 000

804
00:29:45,289 --> 00:29:42,960
flights in U.S airspace that's 5400 in

805
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:45,299
the sky at Peak time worldwide there are

806
00:29:51,710 --> 00:29:48,360
1600 weather balloon launches per day uh

807
00:29:54,350 --> 00:29:51,720
that's 180 just in the us alone 1.69

808
00:29:57,289 --> 00:29:54,360
million small unmanned aircraft systems

809
00:29:58,850 --> 00:29:57,299
and such and around 880 000 drones for

810
00:30:01,730 --> 00:29:58,860
commercial use neither of which are

811
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:01,740
mined or looked at by the FAA that's a

812
00:30:05,810 --> 00:30:04,080
lot of clutter in our skies let alone

813
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,820
anything else it won't be accounted for

814
00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:07,679
and you kind of touched on this there

815
00:30:11,810 --> 00:30:10,260
but how do you as a panel and this may

816
00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:11,820
have been yourself or others how do you

817
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:13,679
start to look for the incredible within

818
00:30:18,110 --> 00:30:15,960
that how do you look for the anomalous

819
00:30:21,289 --> 00:30:18,120
in UAP because I think it'd be very easy

820
00:30:24,769 --> 00:30:21,299
for anyone open-minded or not who isn't

821
00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:24,779
UFO Centric to go into this and think

822
00:30:28,669 --> 00:30:26,760
well almost anything I'm going to look

823
00:30:30,289 --> 00:30:28,679
at here is going to be one of those

824
00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:30,299
flights one of those weather balloons

825
00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:32,760
one of those drones

826
00:30:38,210 --> 00:30:35,880
yeah so we had a little bit of this

827
00:30:40,250 --> 00:30:38,220
discussion during the meeting where you

828
00:30:42,289 --> 00:30:40,260
know I had you used the unfortunate

829
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:42,299
cliche of a needle in a haystack which

830
00:30:46,070 --> 00:30:44,880
like as a writer I just cliches drive me

831
00:30:48,289 --> 00:30:46,080
crazy

832
00:30:49,789 --> 00:30:48,299
um but then that ended up being the

833
00:30:50,810 --> 00:30:49,799
analogy that everybody was using for the

834
00:30:55,310 --> 00:30:50,820
rest of the meeting

835
00:30:58,510 --> 00:30:55,320
and so yeah so the amount of stuff in

836
00:31:01,730 --> 00:30:58,520
the sky at any given time is enormous

837
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:01,740
and the comments that

838
00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:03,360
um my fellow panelists were making were

839
00:31:06,590 --> 00:31:04,860
things like if we're looking for a

840
00:31:08,690 --> 00:31:06,600
needle in that haystack

841
00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:08,700
we don't even know how to define that

842
00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:10,380
needle right now

843
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:11,100
um

844
00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:13,440
you know aaro had

845
00:31:18,370 --> 00:31:16,500
said something like the anomalous events

846
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:18,380
were

847
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,399
described as being anomalous because

848
00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:22,159
they couldn't immediately be explained

849
00:31:28,789 --> 00:31:26,000
by either the Observer or the sensor

850
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:28,799
which I was I was and I think my comment

851
00:31:31,549 --> 00:31:30,000
was like immediately explained is doing

852
00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:31,559
a lot of work in that sense it doesn't

853
00:31:34,490 --> 00:31:32,880
mean they're not explained it just means

854
00:31:36,470 --> 00:31:34,500
we can't immediately come up with an

855
00:31:38,810 --> 00:31:36,480
explanation sure

856
00:31:40,850 --> 00:31:38,820
um but then I think it was

857
00:31:42,169 --> 00:31:40,860
um maybe David spurgle or someone who

858
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:42,179
said well

859
00:31:47,029 --> 00:31:43,980
you know if we have this enormous

860
00:31:48,649 --> 00:31:47,039
Haystack of objects in the sky the one

861
00:31:50,930 --> 00:31:48,659
thing that we can do really well is

862
00:31:52,970 --> 00:31:50,940
figure out what our Haystack looks like

863
00:31:55,010 --> 00:31:52,980
and so if we know what our Haystack

864
00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:55,020
looks like then if something that

865
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:56,820
doesn't look like that Haystack pops up

866
00:32:02,810 --> 00:32:00,419
then maybe that's a good place to start

867
00:32:04,730 --> 00:32:02,820
even if we don't you know really know

868
00:32:05,570 --> 00:32:04,740
how to define what that something should

869
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:05,580
look like

870
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:08,159
yeah and and this topic I think just the

871
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:10,200
idea that the needle may be in the

872
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:12,240
haystack is enough for many people to

873
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:14,159
you know or they have ones themselves

874
00:32:18,649 --> 00:32:16,620
saw a needle in a haystack so yeah every

875
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:18,659
Haystack has a needle within it won't

876
00:32:21,889 --> 00:32:20,340
get too bogged down in your needles and

877
00:32:24,049 --> 00:32:21,899
Haystacks but yeah

878
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:24,059
um with that Nick want your closing

879
00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:25,919
statement you mentioned uh many

880
00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:27,840
discoveries in science are rooted in

881
00:32:31,250 --> 00:32:29,820
unexplained and bizarre phenomenon I

882
00:32:32,990 --> 00:32:31,260
believe this had been said earlier in

883
00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:33,000
the meeting as well something that

884
00:32:35,690 --> 00:32:34,260
frustrates me

885
00:32:38,090 --> 00:32:35,700
um is some of the best known scientists

886
00:32:40,610 --> 00:32:38,100
on the planet Neil deGrasse Tyson uh

887
00:32:43,010 --> 00:32:40,620
Professor Brian Cox in the UK and others

888
00:32:46,070 --> 00:32:43,020
have been rather outspoken in the UFO

889
00:32:47,810 --> 00:32:46,080
topic being dismissive of this likely

890
00:32:50,330 --> 00:32:47,820
being any sort of technology that

891
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,340
represents something as non-human is it

892
00:32:54,169 --> 00:32:52,559
fair to say there's still many folks in

893
00:32:56,990 --> 00:32:54,179
the scientific and academic communities

894
00:32:59,690 --> 00:32:57,000
who don't see the UFO topic is being

895
00:33:01,250 --> 00:32:59,700
worthy of study at all and in a way is

896
00:33:03,169 --> 00:33:01,260
that not turning their back on what

897
00:33:06,049 --> 00:33:03,179
could be the greatest discovery of all

898
00:33:08,810 --> 00:33:06,059
time which as someone who's a Layman and

899
00:33:10,970 --> 00:33:08,820
I absolutely am that surely goes against

900
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:10,980
why people get into science in the first

901
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:13,919
place because why not go and find that

902
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:16,559
mm-hmm yeah no that's a really good

903
00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:18,360
question and and I I agree with your

904
00:33:20,029 --> 00:33:19,380
perspective

905
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:20,039
um

906
00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:22,620
I think both things can be true I think

907
00:33:26,810 --> 00:33:25,140
it can be true that the probability of

908
00:33:28,669 --> 00:33:26,820
you know any of these events being of

909
00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:28,679
extraterrestrial origin is you know

910
00:33:32,750 --> 00:33:31,140
either zero or very close to zero I

911
00:33:33,950 --> 00:33:32,760
think that can be true and I think it

912
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,960
can also be true that they're worth

913
00:33:36,409 --> 00:33:35,760
studying

914
00:33:38,509 --> 00:33:36,419
um

915
00:33:40,970 --> 00:33:38,519
for a lot of reasons you know we did you

916
00:33:43,370 --> 00:33:40,980
the analogy the fast radio burst story

917
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:43,380
was one that um David spurgle brought up

918
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:48,470
um I also think it's true that if we

919
00:33:52,430 --> 00:33:51,000
recommend something like we scan the

920
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:52,440
skies all the time we're going to find

921
00:33:55,549 --> 00:33:54,000
new and interesting atmospheric

922
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:55,559
phenomena that help us understand our

923
00:33:58,430 --> 00:33:57,360
planet better

924
00:34:02,570 --> 00:33:58,440
um

925
00:34:05,149 --> 00:34:02,580
I also think that there is a logical

926
00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:05,159
Continuum between

927
00:34:09,950 --> 00:34:07,380
thinking about techno signatures that

928
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:09,960
are produced by alien civilizations

929
00:34:13,490 --> 00:34:10,800
um

930
00:34:16,250 --> 00:34:13,500
if we think that it's valid to search

931
00:34:17,570 --> 00:34:16,260
for alien techno signatures so study the

932
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:17,580
search for extraterrestrial intelligence

933
00:34:23,149 --> 00:34:20,159
if we think it's valid to do that

934
00:34:24,710 --> 00:34:23,159
um from you know in space there's a

935
00:34:26,089 --> 00:34:24,720
Continuum between doing that and

936
00:34:28,609 --> 00:34:26,099
thinking that it's legitimate to look

937
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:28,619
for those things closer to Earth

938
00:34:32,750 --> 00:34:29,839
um

939
00:34:34,190 --> 00:34:32,760
the kind of messy reality there is that

940
00:34:35,329 --> 00:34:34,200
the probabilities are very much more in

941
00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:35,339
our favor if we're thinking about

942
00:34:39,710 --> 00:34:37,919
finding techno signatures in outer space

943
00:34:40,849 --> 00:34:39,720
and the laws of physics are not in our

944
00:34:42,409 --> 00:34:40,859
favor if we're thinking about looking

945
00:34:44,510 --> 00:34:42,419
for this for those things in Earth's

946
00:34:46,190 --> 00:34:44,520
atmosphere so but that's not to say that

947
00:34:49,070 --> 00:34:46,200
they're not related sorry that was kind

948
00:34:50,450 --> 00:34:49,080
of a jumbly answer but not at all

949
00:34:52,790 --> 00:34:50,460
I understand what you're getting

950
00:34:55,129 --> 00:34:52,800
absolutely and I wonder were there any

951
00:34:57,470 --> 00:34:55,139
moments in in your time on the study

952
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:57,480
that you can talk about that maybe your

953
00:35:01,010 --> 00:34:59,040
library got raised you know something

954
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:01,020
came across your desk something came in

955
00:35:07,490 --> 00:35:03,720
the form of an email or a data set where

956
00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:07,500
you went that is interesting

957
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:09,180
um so we didn't we didn't really look at

958
00:35:13,430 --> 00:35:10,619
the data sets

959
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:13,440
right so that's one of the things that I

960
00:35:15,589 --> 00:35:14,160
think

961
00:35:17,510 --> 00:35:15,599
um

962
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:17,520
is a common misconception like we didn't

963
00:35:20,930 --> 00:35:20,160
really go through the data

964
00:35:24,349 --> 00:35:20,940
um

965
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:24,359
we did hear from Alex Dietrich who was

966
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:27,839
obviously involved in um the Tic Tac and

967
00:35:31,849 --> 00:35:30,300
it was really cool hearing from her

968
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:31,859
um it was a really really she gave a

969
00:35:35,630 --> 00:35:33,839
great presentation it was fun chatting

970
00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:35,640
with her and also hearing about you know

971
00:35:39,770 --> 00:35:37,859
her experiences after all of that

972
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:39,780
unfolded and yeah

973
00:35:43,250 --> 00:35:42,540
the issues that she's had related to it

974
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:43,260
um

975
00:35:50,210 --> 00:35:45,839
so yeah so that was cool I mean what I

976
00:35:53,510 --> 00:35:52,010
there's a lot of interestingness out

977
00:35:55,849 --> 00:35:53,520
there

978
00:35:58,250 --> 00:35:55,859
and I think it's worth looking at

979
00:36:01,310 --> 00:35:59,810
I don't I don't think we're gonna end up

980
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:01,320
finding evidence of extraterrestrial

981
00:36:04,730 --> 00:36:03,119
technology but if we do

982
00:36:08,089 --> 00:36:04,740
awesome

983
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:08,099
as scientists is it fair to say and if

984
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:09,300
someone's listening to this and they

985
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:11,760
will be having a UFO undressed a bit

986
00:36:16,069 --> 00:36:13,140
strange if you'll be on but hi if you

987
00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:16,079
are now a room full of scientist hating

988
00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:18,300
a pilot as qualified as she may be in

989
00:36:23,210 --> 00:36:20,940
Alex Dietrich CV is incredible you know

990
00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:23,220
very well thought of top of our game for

991
00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:25,320
a long long time and our story is

992
00:36:29,870 --> 00:36:27,180
available known one now and she speaks

993
00:36:31,609 --> 00:36:29,880
so well it's still to that room of

994
00:36:34,310 --> 00:36:31,619
scientists just someone telling their

995
00:36:37,010 --> 00:36:34,320
story and they need far more than that

996
00:36:38,690 --> 00:36:37,020
as well told as that story Maybe

997
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:38,700
right right and I know that's

998
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:40,260
frustrating too

999
00:36:44,210 --> 00:36:42,000
um you know one of the things that we

1000
00:36:47,089 --> 00:36:44,220
did put in our remarks was that

1001
00:36:48,829 --> 00:36:47,099
eyewitness accounts on their own while

1002
00:36:50,390 --> 00:36:48,839
they are interesting and compelling or

1003
00:36:52,990 --> 00:36:50,400
not enough

1004
00:36:55,849 --> 00:36:53,000
to draw any conclusive

1005
00:36:59,450 --> 00:36:55,859
to make any conclusions about the nature

1006
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:01,670
that's true and we heard a little bit of

1007
00:37:05,870 --> 00:37:04,560
that from Scott Kelly who I know he's

1008
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:05,880
gotten a lot of blowback for his

1009
00:37:09,470 --> 00:37:07,560
statements about Bart Simpson as well

1010
00:37:11,510 --> 00:37:09,480
yep

1011
00:37:13,970 --> 00:37:11,520
but human brains are fallible right

1012
00:37:15,290 --> 00:37:13,980
sensors are fallible

1013
00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:15,300
um you know the courts here in the

1014
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:16,619
states are really kind of turning away

1015
00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:18,480
from eyewitness testimony because it is

1016
00:37:23,210 --> 00:37:21,180
unreliable in general

1017
00:37:25,250 --> 00:37:23,220
um which is not to say that it's not

1018
00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:25,260
useful right and so what I generally

1019
00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:27,960
tend to do because I've heard stories

1020
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,640
from people who've seen things they

1021
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,920
can't explain my entire life

1022
00:37:35,450 --> 00:37:34,079
sure

1023
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:35,460
um

1024
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,400
is like I believe people you know I I

1025
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:40,800
will listen to a story and I will I

1026
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:42,720
believe that somebody has seen something

1027
00:37:47,089 --> 00:37:46,079
that they can't explain that's totally

1028
00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:47,099
valid

1029
00:37:52,670 --> 00:37:50,700
but then where you know our paths kind

1030
00:37:54,170 --> 00:37:52,680
of diverge is where somebody says I

1031
00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:54,180
can't explain this therefore it must be

1032
00:37:57,710 --> 00:37:55,740
extraterrestrial

1033
00:37:59,450 --> 00:37:57,720
it's like to me that those two dots

1034
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:59,460
don't connect like that like you have to

1035
00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:01,200
follow a different pathway before you

1036
00:38:04,190 --> 00:38:02,160
arrive at the Extraterrestrial

1037
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:04,200
explanation

1038
00:38:07,490 --> 00:38:05,940
um and I think some people get confused

1039
00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:07,500
with some like yourself I hope you've

1040
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:09,180
come across and you have to me that

1041
00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:11,839
you're very willing to find out we have

1042
00:38:15,770 --> 00:38:14,220
extraterrestrial visitation non-human

1043
00:38:18,050 --> 00:38:15,780
probes from a different planet

1044
00:38:20,930 --> 00:38:18,060
civilization whatever it may be but you

1045
00:38:23,810 --> 00:38:20,940
need to see scientific data that backs

1046
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:23,820
that up not a wealth of testimony or

1047
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:25,680
videos on YouTube because that's just

1048
00:38:30,349 --> 00:38:28,320
not how you're wired to to receive that

1049
00:38:32,089 --> 00:38:30,359
information and as frustrating as that

1050
00:38:34,010 --> 00:38:32,099
may be that's also like I said earlier

1051
00:38:35,690 --> 00:38:34,020
one of the reasons it's good to have a

1052
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:35,700
panel of folks who are looking at the

1053
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:37,680
scientific data because if they can

1054
00:38:43,010 --> 00:38:41,040
truly find that real hard evidence then

1055
00:38:47,390 --> 00:38:43,020
it blows the whole thing wide open and

1056
00:38:50,569 --> 00:38:47,400
as much as our 800 reports if 799 are

1057
00:38:52,910 --> 00:38:50,579
prosec it just takes that one that

1058
00:38:54,170 --> 00:38:52,920
everything else changes it just takes

1059
00:38:56,210 --> 00:38:54,180
that one

1060
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,220
um yeah and one of the discussions that

1061
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:58,079
I was seeing happen

1062
00:39:02,569 --> 00:38:59,760
when the panel was announced was

1063
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,579
something like wow this is going to be a

1064
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:05,280
really good lesson in you know standards

1065
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,380
of evidence you know how

1066
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:09,119
what standards do you hold your data to

1067
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:11,460
how closely do you scrutinize it and I

1068
00:39:15,589 --> 00:39:13,020
think that's where we're seeing a

1069
00:39:19,010 --> 00:39:15,599
difference here is you know how what

1070
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,020
what do we need to see to convince us

1071
00:39:22,910 --> 00:39:21,359
um that something is real and that's

1072
00:39:24,770 --> 00:39:22,920
exactly what you were just saying is

1073
00:39:26,990 --> 00:39:24,780
like you know everyone's open to the

1074
00:39:29,930 --> 00:39:27,000
possibility but it's just gonna the bar

1075
00:39:31,790 --> 00:39:29,940
is pretty high and it should lie it

1076
00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:31,800
should be High

1077
00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:35,420
um because we don't want to mess this up

1078
00:39:40,609 --> 00:39:38,940
your exact wording was at UAP offer an

1079
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:40,619
excellent opportunity to demonstrate the

1080
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:43,200
power of the scientific method which is

1081
00:39:46,849 --> 00:39:44,760
absolutely correct

1082
00:39:48,170 --> 00:39:46,859
um again for a Layman like myself saying

1083
00:39:50,630 --> 00:39:48,180
scientifically minded people getting

1084
00:39:53,329 --> 00:39:50,640
involved is wonderful do you think this

1085
00:39:56,569 --> 00:39:53,339
panel given your experience as a start

1086
00:39:58,849 --> 00:39:56,579
of something more within the UAP topic

1087
00:40:00,890 --> 00:39:58,859
and more people like you and the others

1088
00:40:03,050 --> 00:40:00,900
on that panel getting involved other

1089
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:03,060
panels like this happening was that the

1090
00:40:06,829 --> 00:40:04,800
general kind of feeling and Vibe you got

1091
00:40:08,990 --> 00:40:06,839
from the people you worked with

1092
00:40:11,470 --> 00:40:09,000
I don't actually know

1093
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:11,480
what the future looks like

1094
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:15,180
I don't know I mean I think if if NASA

1095
00:40:19,849 --> 00:40:17,700
does adopt if they choose to adopt the

1096
00:40:22,550 --> 00:40:19,859
recommendations that we make then then

1097
00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:22,560
we'll start to see something shifting

1098
00:40:25,069 --> 00:40:24,420
um but I don't I don't know I mean I

1099
00:40:26,630 --> 00:40:25,079
don't really know what the

1100
00:40:28,790 --> 00:40:26,640
recommendations we're going to make are

1101
00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:28,800
at this point

1102
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:30,420
um but if the agency does put something

1103
00:40:33,710 --> 00:40:31,980
into place I mean I think you heard Mike

1104
00:40:35,569 --> 00:40:33,720
gold say and it was this was the first

1105
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:35,579
time I'd heard him say that that he

1106
00:40:40,069 --> 00:40:36,960
would like to see a dedicated office

1107
00:40:42,349 --> 00:40:40,079
within the agency kind of like aaro

1108
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:42,359
um looking at these things and if that

1109
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:44,160
does happen then I think you you know

1110
00:40:48,530 --> 00:40:45,599
you're going to see that there's a

1111
00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:48,540
there's a shift but um I think it's too

1112
00:40:53,329 --> 00:40:50,640
soon to say I think this is a great

1113
00:40:55,970 --> 00:40:53,339
first step in terms of kind of

1114
00:40:58,849 --> 00:40:55,980
destigmatizing the topic and

1115
00:41:00,829 --> 00:40:58,859
kind of in sort of the same way that um

1116
00:41:02,690 --> 00:41:00,839
you know techno signature searches in

1117
00:41:05,270 --> 00:41:02,700
the fields of astrobiology have had to

1118
00:41:07,790 --> 00:41:05,280
kind of shed some of the stigma and move

1119
00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:07,800
in from The Fringe and have I mean study

1120
00:41:10,370 --> 00:41:09,060
is still kind of fighting to be

1121
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:10,380
considered mainstream science but

1122
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:12,000
astrobiology now is a discipline that

1123
00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:12,740
everybody

1124
00:41:16,970 --> 00:41:15,660
understands and supports it didn't used

1125
00:41:19,310 --> 00:41:16,980
to be that way

1126
00:41:22,069 --> 00:41:19,320
um so maybe it's just part of the

1127
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:22,079
Natural Evolution of things

1128
00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:24,180
did you get the opportunity to meet NASA

1129
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:26,220
administrator Bill Nelson

1130
00:41:31,310 --> 00:41:29,040
I have met him a couple of times

1131
00:41:34,310 --> 00:41:31,320
um you know just also from my work as as

1132
00:41:36,829 --> 00:41:34,320
a journalist so yeah he's a strong

1133
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:36,839
champion of the UFO topic and has been

1134
00:41:41,870 --> 00:41:39,060
briefed many times in his previous role

1135
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:41,880
in in US government and I just wonder do

1136
00:41:46,490 --> 00:41:43,980
you think that helps NASA as an

1137
00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:46,500
organization get involved in this now

1138
00:41:49,310 --> 00:41:47,820
and I wonder would this have even

1139
00:41:52,190 --> 00:41:49,320
happened without someone like Bill

1140
00:41:53,569 --> 00:41:52,200
Nelson and his belief he said on live TV

1141
00:41:55,849 --> 00:41:53,579
you know he strongly believes we're not

1142
00:41:57,530 --> 00:41:55,859
alone out there and is that the right

1143
00:42:00,230 --> 00:41:57,540
type of person then for you to be at the

1144
00:42:01,670 --> 00:42:00,240
head of NASA now pushing forward studies

1145
00:42:03,050 --> 00:42:01,680
like this

1146
00:42:04,490 --> 00:42:03,060
I think

1147
00:42:06,770 --> 00:42:04,500
um I'm trying to remember who said it

1148
00:42:08,030 --> 00:42:06,780
but I think Dan Evans might have made a

1149
00:42:11,089 --> 00:42:08,040
remark at the beginning of the meeting

1150
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:11,099
about how this this is a bill Nielsen

1151
00:42:13,609 --> 00:42:12,240
idea

1152
00:42:16,310 --> 00:42:13,619
um definitely fact check me on that

1153
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:16,320
because I would probably refer to NASA

1154
00:42:20,030 --> 00:42:18,240
for an answer to that question

1155
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,040
I'll say that's correct and that's

1156
00:42:24,290 --> 00:42:21,839
incorrect and I'll delete as applicable

1157
00:42:26,270 --> 00:42:24,300
but yeah

1158
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:26,280
dude do the do the fact check on that

1159
00:42:29,510 --> 00:42:27,240
one

1160
00:42:31,370 --> 00:42:29,520
um but no I mean I think

1161
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:31,380
um

1162
00:42:37,310 --> 00:42:34,079
there are people who don't think that

1163
00:42:39,770 --> 00:42:37,320
there is life beyond Earth in any form

1164
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:39,780
and that's really interesting

1165
00:42:44,030 --> 00:42:42,000
that's a very interesting perspective to

1166
00:42:46,370 --> 00:42:44,040
have I think because you know my default

1167
00:42:48,349 --> 00:42:46,380
is that there is life beyond Earth and

1168
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:48,359
we're going to find it at some point

1169
00:42:52,010 --> 00:42:50,160
it's just what form are we going to find

1170
00:42:54,170 --> 00:42:52,020
it in first

1171
00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:54,180
um but there are people who disagree

1172
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,619
with that idea

1173
00:42:59,990 --> 00:42:57,359
which is kind of cool

1174
00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:00,000
absolutely and this study is due to be

1175
00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:01,920
released is it still on track for some

1176
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:05,819
time end of July or is that a fluid date

1177
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:08,400
um as far as I know that's the plan I

1178
00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:10,680
don't know you know if I don't I don't

1179
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:11,880
have a good sense of whether we're

1180
00:43:16,550 --> 00:43:14,480
already falling behind or not

1181
00:43:17,510 --> 00:43:16,560
I really want to see this thing out in

1182
00:43:19,010 --> 00:43:17,520
the wild

1183
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:19,020
um yeah

1184
00:43:22,670 --> 00:43:20,640
well we're going to shift a little bit

1185
00:43:26,030 --> 00:43:22,680
from the from the science and the data

1186
00:43:27,589 --> 00:43:26,040
into still still very much factual uh

1187
00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:27,599
story it's something that happened this

1188
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:29,160
week and you mentioned to me before

1189
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,440
recording well you're not totally across

1190
00:43:35,690 --> 00:43:33,839
it you're aware that um Former

1191
00:43:38,329 --> 00:43:35,700
Intelligence officer David grush has

1192
00:43:40,790 --> 00:43:38,339
come forward and blown the whistle on

1193
00:43:43,069 --> 00:43:40,800
alleged documents he has seen and passed

1194
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:43,079
to Congress that the U.S government is

1195
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,079
aware of pieces of craft full intact

1196
00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:49,200
craft and also non-human bodies now

1197
00:43:53,690 --> 00:43:51,480
that's quite a statement and I just

1198
00:43:56,150 --> 00:43:53,700
wonder when you hear all of that

1199
00:43:58,730 --> 00:43:56,160
happening around the time NASA's had

1200
00:44:00,290 --> 00:43:58,740
this study and we've got talk of U.S

1201
00:44:03,650 --> 00:44:00,300
Congress are going to have hearings on

1202
00:44:06,770 --> 00:44:03,660
UAP what do you immediately think as as

1203
00:44:07,490 --> 00:44:06,780
someone who's scientifically minded

1204
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:07,500
um

1205
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:09,060
well I don't I mean I don't have any

1206
00:44:13,309 --> 00:44:11,460
first-hand knowledge of really anything

1207
00:44:16,010 --> 00:44:13,319
I've just been seeing the same headlines

1208
00:44:18,589 --> 00:44:16,020
and stories and

1209
00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:18,599
me I want to see the data I want to see

1210
00:44:22,910 --> 00:44:20,760
the actual documents I want to talk to

1211
00:44:24,589 --> 00:44:22,920
the people right now it sounds like it's

1212
00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:24,599
hearsay

1213
00:44:29,690 --> 00:44:27,180
um you know he didn't actually see the

1214
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:29,700
craft he didn't actually see

1215
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:31,680
that's correct yeah he's not he's not

1216
00:44:37,250 --> 00:44:34,619
seen uh videos or photographs he was in

1217
00:44:38,930 --> 00:44:37,260
charge of briefing the president and in

1218
00:44:40,849 --> 00:44:38,940
the fact he had access to over 200

1219
00:44:42,829 --> 00:44:40,859
special access programs as I read this

1220
00:44:46,010 --> 00:44:42,839
off memory uh he saw enough

1221
00:44:48,410 --> 00:44:46,020
documentation that alluded to pieces of

1222
00:44:49,849 --> 00:44:48,420
craft intact craft and bodies so you're

1223
00:44:51,410 --> 00:44:49,859
right and I think they've been honest

1224
00:44:53,589 --> 00:44:51,420
enough to say that and he's come out and

1225
00:44:56,210 --> 00:44:53,599
said I've not seen craft you know videos

1226
00:44:57,770 --> 00:44:56,220
photographs myself but I've seen the the

1227
00:44:59,089 --> 00:44:57,780
paper trail and that's what he's handed

1228
00:45:01,849 --> 00:44:59,099
to Congress

1229
00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:01,859
yeah I think I mean you know we've

1230
00:45:05,690 --> 00:45:03,960
already talked about where I tend to

1231
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,700
come from in terms of my my own

1232
00:45:09,770 --> 00:45:07,440
standards but you know I would want to

1233
00:45:12,050 --> 00:45:09,780
see those things before

1234
00:45:13,130 --> 00:45:12,060
before even you know taking the next

1235
00:45:14,510 --> 00:45:13,140
step

1236
00:45:16,490 --> 00:45:14,520
um

1237
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:16,500
and to be fair that's why some of those

1238
00:45:20,930 --> 00:45:18,900
big news organizations apparently passed

1239
00:45:22,910 --> 00:45:20,940
on this they asked to hold they needed

1240
00:45:25,010 --> 00:45:22,920
more time to vet a few more things as

1241
00:45:26,690 --> 00:45:25,020
incredible as the headlines are they

1242
00:45:27,950 --> 00:45:26,700
wanted more time rightly or wrongly

1243
00:45:29,870 --> 00:45:27,960
maybe they've missed out on an

1244
00:45:31,550 --> 00:45:29,880
incredible story maybe they've done the

1245
00:45:35,210 --> 00:45:31,560
right thing if I can ask you a

1246
00:45:38,270 --> 00:45:35,220
hypothetical though F say

1247
00:45:39,589 --> 00:45:38,280
today and the new cycle the US

1248
00:45:40,609 --> 00:45:39,599
government did come out and said you

1249
00:45:43,609 --> 00:45:40,619
know what yeah we actually have

1250
00:45:46,370 --> 00:45:43,619
retrieved a few pieces of of things that

1251
00:45:49,370 --> 00:45:46,380
we think in our early testing maybe of

1252
00:45:53,450 --> 00:45:49,380
you know exotic origin as per se how

1253
00:45:58,130 --> 00:45:55,970
the NASA study I think the NASA study

1254
00:45:59,630 --> 00:45:58,140
will be what it is

1255
00:46:01,609 --> 00:45:59,640
um it's not a material science

1256
00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:01,619
investigation

1257
00:46:06,650 --> 00:46:04,260
um it's more just data Gathering about

1258
00:46:08,930 --> 00:46:06,660
the phenomenon you know

1259
00:46:11,569 --> 00:46:08,940
if the government said we do think these

1260
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:11,579
things are weird then like I would

1261
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:13,440
really hope that they've got some really

1262
00:46:17,450 --> 00:46:15,180
good material scientists looking into it

1263
00:46:19,130 --> 00:46:17,460
and thinking about

1264
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:19,140
um explanations for what they're seeing

1265
00:46:22,069 --> 00:46:20,880
kind of in the same way you know I just

1266
00:46:23,569 --> 00:46:22,079
keep thinking about this in terms of

1267
00:46:25,609 --> 00:46:23,579
astrobiology

1268
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:25,619
um biosignatures if you're looking for

1269
00:46:28,849 --> 00:46:26,400
life

1270
00:46:30,349 --> 00:46:28,859
on mars or in the atmosphere of an

1271
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:30,359
exoplanet what are you actually looking

1272
00:46:33,410 --> 00:46:31,200
for

1273
00:46:35,809 --> 00:46:33,420
and you know people don't necessarily

1274
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:35,819
know but they have this like huge range

1275
00:46:40,370 --> 00:46:38,160
of ideas and it usually comes down to

1276
00:46:44,050 --> 00:46:40,380
it's not going to be one thing

1277
00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:44,060
on its own unless it's like a squid

1278
00:46:48,770 --> 00:46:47,579
swimming in the ocean of Europa that

1279
00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:48,780
tells you that there's life on another

1280
00:46:52,790 --> 00:46:50,280
world it's going to be a preponderance

1281
00:46:54,410 --> 00:46:52,800
of all the available evidence

1282
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:54,420
um and so I would hope that that same

1283
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:57,599
kind of framework would be at play um

1284
00:47:00,829 --> 00:46:59,760
with any sort of Investigation of

1285
00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:00,839
materials

1286
00:47:05,930 --> 00:47:02,700
finding the squid would still be cool

1287
00:47:07,630 --> 00:47:05,940
though I'd be happy with that yeah you'd

1288
00:47:09,950 --> 00:47:07,640
open squids yeah

1289
00:47:11,329 --> 00:47:09,960
honestly your rope and cephalopods would

1290
00:47:13,490 --> 00:47:11,339
be like the coolest thing

1291
00:47:15,109 --> 00:47:13,500
yeah there's a whole the whole series on

1292
00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:15,119
that on that Geo that would be that

1293
00:47:19,550 --> 00:47:17,240
would be worth worth watching

1294
00:47:21,050 --> 00:47:19,560
lesson let's um look at a few lesson our

1295
00:47:22,609 --> 00:47:21,060
questions to finish off an idea if you

1296
00:47:24,650 --> 00:47:22,619
don't mind and some of these may be more

1297
00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:24,660
speculative but that's what listeners

1298
00:47:29,750 --> 00:47:26,520
like to to get into as well

1299
00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:29,760
um first up from Farooq does NASA have

1300
00:47:33,950 --> 00:47:31,859
access to historical data and you

1301
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:33,960
touched on this earlier and what does

1302
00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:35,520
NASA think about and you may or may not

1303
00:47:38,270 --> 00:47:37,260
have heard of this individual Timothy

1304
00:47:40,849 --> 00:47:38,280
Taylor

1305
00:47:43,730 --> 00:47:40,859
um or have you or anyone within the NASA

1306
00:47:46,790 --> 00:47:43,740
team spoken to others involved with

1307
00:47:48,530 --> 00:47:46,800
programs related to the phenomena

1308
00:47:51,410 --> 00:47:48,540
did you say Timothy Taylor

1309
00:47:53,089 --> 00:47:51,420
yeah I don't I don't know who that is I

1310
00:47:54,589 --> 00:47:53,099
don't thank you well he was a gentleman

1311
00:47:57,890 --> 00:47:54,599
without going into all the details who

1312
00:47:59,809 --> 00:47:57,900
was involved with NASA who allegedly is

1313
00:48:01,970 --> 00:47:59,819
involved quite deeply in the UFO UAP

1314
00:48:03,410 --> 00:48:01,980
programs to the point is well aware of

1315
00:48:04,970 --> 00:48:03,420
the evidence so that may not be

1316
00:48:07,069 --> 00:48:04,980
something and I doubt that type of

1317
00:48:08,870 --> 00:48:07,079
individual is what you were presented

1318
00:48:10,849 --> 00:48:08,880
with in the group

1319
00:48:13,010 --> 00:48:10,859
um it would be that level but looking at

1320
00:48:15,410 --> 00:48:13,020
historical data

1321
00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:15,420
um what does NASA that you're aware of

1322
00:48:20,089 --> 00:48:17,880
have access to

1323
00:48:21,589 --> 00:48:20,099
I don't know the answer to I don't know

1324
00:48:23,630 --> 00:48:21,599
I don't know what they have in their

1325
00:48:26,089 --> 00:48:23,640
archives I mean I do know that what we

1326
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:26,099
talked about were

1327
00:48:30,589 --> 00:48:28,079
um you know data collected from the

1328
00:48:32,569 --> 00:48:30,599
earth science program so a lot of the

1329
00:48:34,970 --> 00:48:32,579
earth observing satellites

1330
00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:34,980
um what kinds of capabilities do those

1331
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:37,680
assets have what sorts of resolution can

1332
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:39,359
they see

1333
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:40,079
um

1334
00:48:43,970 --> 00:48:41,280
you know what are the observational

1335
00:48:46,130 --> 00:48:43,980
cadences like I don't think that's the

1336
00:48:48,829 --> 00:48:46,140
kind of data that this listener is

1337
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,839
asking about though uh so do you know

1338
00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:50,640
what the answer let me guess let me

1339
00:48:53,270 --> 00:48:52,020
guess at what he might be thinking of

1340
00:48:54,710 --> 00:48:53,280
and this is what I was going to bring up

1341
00:48:56,569 --> 00:48:54,720
anyway

1342
00:48:58,190 --> 00:48:56,579
and I think something we talked about on

1343
00:49:00,109 --> 00:48:58,200
the podcast several times and listeners

1344
00:49:02,270 --> 00:49:00,119
have got a big interest in if you ever

1345
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,280
go on YouTube and look at any number of

1346
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,800
hours of footage from NASA's space

1347
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:06,720
station or various you know shuttle

1348
00:49:11,630 --> 00:49:09,839
missions there are hundreds of hours of

1349
00:49:14,690 --> 00:49:11,640
interesting objects floating about in

1350
00:49:16,550 --> 00:49:14,700
space almost definitely there is a lot

1351
00:49:18,770 --> 00:49:16,560
of very prosaic items up there including

1352
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:18,780
ice crystals you know bits of craft

1353
00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:21,359
breaking off you know just satellites

1354
00:49:25,309 --> 00:49:22,980
and junk because if you ever see those

1355
00:49:26,990 --> 00:49:25,319
pictures of our orbit that is it's a

1356
00:49:29,510 --> 00:49:27,000
junkyard up there with what's lying

1357
00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:29,520
about you know relatively however there

1358
00:49:34,190 --> 00:49:31,859
are some very interesting bits of

1359
00:49:36,349 --> 00:49:34,200
footage official NASA footage that show

1360
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:36,359
some interesting movements potentially

1361
00:49:40,010 --> 00:49:38,400
of objects you know

1362
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,020
um and I think a lot of people would

1363
00:49:44,089 --> 00:49:42,480
automatically think if I as a Layman was

1364
00:49:46,910 --> 00:49:44,099
going to be placed onto a NASA panel

1365
00:49:48,890 --> 00:49:46,920
looking at UAP why wouldn't I go and

1366
00:49:51,109 --> 00:49:48,900
watch some really interesting or cool

1367
00:49:53,690 --> 00:49:51,119
videos even if it was purely

1368
00:49:55,250 --> 00:49:53,700
Dr Nadia Drake half past nine at night

1369
00:49:57,349 --> 00:49:55,260
putting her feet up on the couch glass

1370
00:49:58,910 --> 00:49:57,359
of wine and going what does NASA have

1371
00:50:00,650 --> 00:49:58,920
let me check out YouTube is that not

1372
00:50:01,910 --> 00:50:00,660
even something that would cross your

1373
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:01,920
mind

1374
00:50:08,210 --> 00:50:05,520
I mean I think no it didn't

1375
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:08,220
um and I think because if NASA had

1376
00:50:11,690 --> 00:50:10,200
something like that that was going to be

1377
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:11,700
truly informative to the work that we

1378
00:50:15,349 --> 00:50:13,440
were doing I think they probably would

1379
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:15,359
have showed us or pointed it toward it

1380
00:50:19,130 --> 00:50:18,000
pointed us toward it

1381
00:50:21,710 --> 00:50:19,140
um and I think you know we heard from

1382
00:50:24,050 --> 00:50:21,720
Scott Kelly who was saying a very he

1383
00:50:26,690 --> 00:50:24,060
gave a very definitive answer when it

1384
00:50:28,250 --> 00:50:26,700
came to astronauts signing ndas

1385
00:50:30,770 --> 00:50:28,260
um we had a very definitive answer to

1386
00:50:32,990 --> 00:50:30,780
has NASA ever cut the feed for

1387
00:50:35,870 --> 00:50:33,000
um if a UAP was spotted you know the

1388
00:50:37,609 --> 00:50:35,880
answer was no so you know I think if any

1389
00:50:39,050 --> 00:50:37,619
of those videos were going to be

1390
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:39,060
informative to our work we probably

1391
00:50:42,230 --> 00:50:41,280
would have seen them but

1392
00:50:44,089 --> 00:50:42,240
um

1393
00:50:45,770 --> 00:50:44,099
I know a lot of lessons right now will

1394
00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:45,780
potentially disagree with that just

1395
00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:47,640
given some of the I've done a show on

1396
00:50:51,530 --> 00:50:49,140
some of the videos and I'll just see and

1397
00:50:52,849 --> 00:50:51,540
I'm sure a scientist or someone who was

1398
00:50:55,069 --> 00:50:52,859
more skeptical would sit and tell me

1399
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:55,079
what some of these things may be there's

1400
00:50:57,950 --> 00:50:56,640
definitely a couple of videos and I'll

1401
00:50:59,569 --> 00:50:57,960
personally just send you some links

1402
00:51:02,210 --> 00:50:59,579
anyway afterwards an idea that you can

1403
00:51:03,530 --> 00:51:02,220
choose to yeah do what do what you like

1404
00:51:04,849 --> 00:51:03,540
with but there's some pretty interesting

1405
00:51:07,609 --> 00:51:04,859
movements

1406
00:51:09,770 --> 00:51:07,619
um from things out in space that can't

1407
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:09,780
be explained and and I've said before as

1408
00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:11,520
well on the other side of that I'm will

1409
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:13,260
a bit of NASA when they may or may not

1410
00:51:16,730 --> 00:51:15,300
cut their feeds can be because other

1411
00:51:19,190 --> 00:51:16,740
objects come into play that aren't

1412
00:51:21,650 --> 00:51:19,200
necessarily UFOs it could be us

1413
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,660
technology satellites you know things

1414
00:51:25,010 --> 00:51:23,040
are just not meant to be filming I've

1415
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:25,020
been told in the past however

1416
00:51:27,829 --> 00:51:26,160
um like you say if that's not something

1417
00:51:30,109 --> 00:51:27,839
you're a lot more privy to

1418
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:30,119
that's that's the way it goes

1419
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:31,980
um question from Chris and that's that's

1420
00:51:35,569 --> 00:51:33,180
me repeat a little bit on previous

1421
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:35,579
questions uh I would love to know if the

1422
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:36,960
information that they're going to look

1423
00:51:41,450 --> 00:51:39,180
for or already have is going to be

1424
00:51:43,250 --> 00:51:41,460
shared with the public or is it going to

1425
00:51:44,930 --> 00:51:43,260
be classified and do we get an

1426
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:44,940
unclassified version like it's happening

1427
00:51:48,230 --> 00:51:46,319
for congress so what you're going to

1428
00:51:49,910 --> 00:51:48,240
present is it completely public and

1429
00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:49,920
transparent or are there potentially

1430
00:51:54,829 --> 00:51:52,440
variations yeah no it's all going to be

1431
00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:54,839
totally public totally open yep nothing

1432
00:51:58,130 --> 00:51:56,220
classified

1433
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:58,140
and crested have a little bit on there

1434
00:52:02,450 --> 00:52:00,720
for context however I think it gets to

1435
00:52:04,430 --> 00:52:02,460
what we've alluded to that some people

1436
00:52:07,069 --> 00:52:04,440
thought you were going to present is

1437
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:07,079
there evidence of you truly enormous UAP

1438
00:52:12,049 --> 00:52:09,119
and that wasn't the purpose of the study

1439
00:52:13,790 --> 00:52:12,059
the purpose of the study was look at how

1440
00:52:15,470 --> 00:52:13,800
data collection could be better suited

1441
00:52:18,349 --> 00:52:15,480
how it could be gathered what data is

1442
00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:18,359
out there to use and maybe some of that

1443
00:52:23,030 --> 00:52:20,819
stuff people would want to come in would

1444
00:52:26,329 --> 00:52:23,040
be the result of a future studying

1445
00:52:28,849 --> 00:52:26,339
investigation yep that's exactly right

1446
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:28,859
um yeah you you nailed it

1447
00:52:37,849 --> 00:52:35,990
um question from David what is the

1448
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:37,859
likelihood that life evolves outside

1449
00:52:42,710 --> 00:52:40,559
this biosphere would still use DNA as a

1450
00:52:45,109 --> 00:52:42,720
blueprint for physical makeup okay

1451
00:52:45,770 --> 00:52:45,119
that's such a good question

1452
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:45,780
um

1453
00:52:49,130 --> 00:52:47,520
that is such a good question and the

1454
00:52:50,809 --> 00:52:49,140
answer is we don't know

1455
00:52:52,010 --> 00:52:50,819
we don't know

1456
00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:52,020
um

1457
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:54,480
DNA is one thing that you know I was

1458
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,740
talking about this constellation of

1459
00:53:00,049 --> 00:52:57,119
biosignatures that you can think about

1460
00:53:02,750 --> 00:53:00,059
looking for if you find DNA that's

1461
00:53:04,910 --> 00:53:02,760
that's a pretty good one

1462
00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:04,920
um but the answer is we really don't

1463
00:53:09,530 --> 00:53:07,740
know until we until we see it

1464
00:53:12,170 --> 00:53:09,540
um there are some

1465
00:53:14,270 --> 00:53:12,180
I think there are some instances in

1466
00:53:16,849 --> 00:53:14,280
which seeing something like that is a

1467
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:16,859
lot more likely so on a on a world that

1468
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:19,680
has a chemistry like ours

1469
00:53:23,750 --> 00:53:21,359
um but if you look at somewhere like the

1470
00:53:26,690 --> 00:53:23,760
surface of Titan where it's kind of

1471
00:53:28,490 --> 00:53:26,700
alien if totally alien chemistry

1472
00:53:31,190 --> 00:53:28,500
um lakes and seas made of hydrocarbons

1473
00:53:35,270 --> 00:53:31,200
you know the rocks are water ice the

1474
00:53:37,549 --> 00:53:35,280
sand is also hydrocarbons you would not

1475
00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:37,559
be seeing a chemistry

1476
00:53:41,030 --> 00:53:39,540
um like ours and so I think if life

1477
00:53:43,309 --> 00:53:41,040
evolved there it's building blocks are

1478
00:53:46,010 --> 00:53:43,319
likely to be quite different

1479
00:53:49,309 --> 00:53:46,020
but you know the answer is we don't know

1480
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:49,319
and final question from Simply a is when

1481
00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:51,599
so many other people and agencies have

1482
00:53:57,290 --> 00:53:54,660
seen uaps how can it be Nasa say they

1483
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,300
have never got any credible footage on

1484
00:54:01,630 --> 00:53:59,040
their servers I'll just say I'm going to

1485
00:54:04,790 --> 00:54:01,640
paraphrase that one

1486
00:54:06,890 --> 00:54:04,800
again I think it comes back to you know

1487
00:54:09,290 --> 00:54:06,900
what are your standards of evidence how

1488
00:54:10,010 --> 00:54:09,300
are you define incredible

1489
00:54:12,410 --> 00:54:10,020
um

1490
00:54:15,049 --> 00:54:12,420
I would also contend that just because

1491
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:15,059
again you see something that is an

1492
00:54:21,049 --> 00:54:17,760
unidentified craft that doesn't mean

1493
00:54:23,030 --> 00:54:21,059
that it has an alien origin

1494
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:23,040
um and if you if you think about

1495
00:54:28,970 --> 00:54:26,940
what um Sean Kirkpatrick said you know

1496
00:54:31,130 --> 00:54:28,980
they have 800 some odd cases only

1497
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:31,140
somewhere between two and five percent

1498
00:54:35,930 --> 00:54:33,839
you know small single digits are not

1499
00:54:38,450 --> 00:54:35,940
immediately explainable

1500
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:38,460
all those people who made the reports

1501
00:54:41,569 --> 00:54:39,839
didn't know what they were seeing and

1502
00:54:43,730 --> 00:54:41,579
they didn't know how to explain them

1503
00:54:45,109 --> 00:54:43,740
so again just because you see something

1504
00:54:46,910 --> 00:54:45,119
you can't explain doesn't mean that it

1505
00:54:49,809 --> 00:54:46,920
has an extraterrestrial origin but it

1506
00:54:52,609 --> 00:54:51,890
answering that question takes a lot of

1507
00:54:55,130 --> 00:54:52,619
work

1508
00:54:56,390 --> 00:54:55,140
it does and uh I think what we can look

1509
00:54:59,089 --> 00:54:56,400
at though is that people like Alex

1510
00:55:00,589 --> 00:54:59,099
dietrich's David fravor have claimed to

1511
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:00,599
have seen some pretty incredible things

1512
00:55:05,450 --> 00:55:03,660
pretty close up that people like

1513
00:55:09,410 --> 00:55:05,460
yourself Nadia would love to get your

1514
00:55:11,089 --> 00:55:09,420
hands on that sort of data footage and

1515
00:55:13,790 --> 00:55:11,099
right now that's just not what the ask

1516
00:55:15,710 --> 00:55:13,800
was but I wonder if you finish off do

1517
00:55:17,150 --> 00:55:15,720
you think given the work you've done as

1518
00:55:19,309 --> 00:55:17,160
part of this study and the work that's

1519
00:55:21,170 --> 00:55:19,319
being done as part of the study are we

1520
00:55:22,849 --> 00:55:21,180
any closer to knowing more of an exact

1521
00:55:25,309 --> 00:55:22,859
answer to your father's famous equation

1522
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:25,319
no

1523
00:55:29,030 --> 00:55:26,400
hmm

1524
00:55:31,370 --> 00:55:29,040
I I don't think the study is going to be

1525
00:55:32,270 --> 00:55:31,380
the one that answers that question for

1526
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:32,280
him

1527
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:37,680
periodically you know what do you think

1528
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:40,680
the answer to the Drake equation is and

1529
00:55:46,490 --> 00:55:43,380
his response was somewhere between one

1530
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:46,500
and a billion but probably ten thousand

1531
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:48,960
so he had a good reason for thinking it

1532
00:55:51,770 --> 00:55:50,160
was ten thousand that I won't go into

1533
00:55:53,990 --> 00:55:51,780
but

1534
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:54,000
um you know I I don't think that this is

1535
00:55:57,890 --> 00:55:55,800
the one that's going to move the ball

1536
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,900
down the field on that one but if it

1537
00:56:02,030 --> 00:56:00,240
does great

1538
00:56:03,290 --> 00:56:02,040
awesome well listen Nadia it's been

1539
00:56:05,270 --> 00:56:03,300
wonderful speaking with you you've been

1540
00:56:06,770 --> 00:56:05,280
very generous with your time

1541
00:56:08,630 --> 00:56:06,780
um it would be great to get you back on

1542
00:56:10,370 --> 00:56:08,640
sometime down the line again from a

1543
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:10,380
scientific point of view talk about the

1544
00:56:14,809 --> 00:56:12,720
the published paper and also just your

1545
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,819
general thoughts on on life the universe

1546
00:56:18,470 --> 00:56:16,319
and everything

1547
00:56:21,049 --> 00:56:18,480
um I think Gavin you got some abuse

1548
00:56:22,430 --> 00:56:21,059
online I usually ask any of my guests

1549
00:56:24,049 --> 00:56:22,440
this but how can people find you and

1550
00:56:27,170 --> 00:56:24,059
find your work often did you do want

1551
00:56:31,069 --> 00:56:28,490
um first of all thank you for having me

1552
00:56:34,910 --> 00:56:31,079
on I appreciate it um the answer is 42

1553
00:56:39,970 --> 00:56:37,490
um I have I have a website

1554
00:56:43,069 --> 00:56:39,980
um I am on Twitter a lot less these days

1555
00:56:44,809 --> 00:56:43,079
uh but that's that's about it

1556
00:56:46,490 --> 00:56:44,819
I'll put those links in the description

1557
00:56:47,809 --> 00:56:46,500
to the podcast as well if anyone wants

1558
00:56:49,370 --> 00:56:47,819
to get in touch with Nadia check out

1559
00:56:52,190 --> 00:56:49,380
some of our articles on the website as

1560
00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:52,200
well or drop it up nice message on UFO

1561
00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:53,940
Twitter because honestly there are far

1562
00:56:57,349 --> 00:56:55,980
more nice people than than not nice ones

1563
00:56:59,089 --> 00:56:57,359
out there so and I'm sure none of the

1564
00:57:01,730 --> 00:56:59,099
bad ones are listening to this are you

1565
00:57:02,930 --> 00:57:01,740
so yeah Nadia wonderful speaking with

1566
00:57:05,450 --> 00:57:02,940
you and thank you very much for your

1567
00:57:07,490 --> 00:57:05,460
time yeah thank you I appreciate it that

1568
00:57:09,410 --> 00:57:07,500
is all for this week's show thank you

1569
00:57:11,630 --> 00:57:09,420
very much for listening please remember

1570
00:57:14,930 --> 00:57:11,640
to leave the podcast a review on your

1571
00:57:16,609 --> 00:57:14,940
chosen platform you can like retweet And

1572
00:57:18,710 --> 00:57:16,619
subscribe that would all be very much

1573
00:57:20,809 --> 00:57:18,720
appreciated the shows are being uploaded

1574
00:57:22,970 --> 00:57:20,819
onto YouTube as we speak more and more

1575
00:57:25,790 --> 00:57:22,980
you can sign up at patreon.com forward

1576
00:57:28,250 --> 00:57:25,800
slash that UFO podcast the accessories

1577
00:57:30,530 --> 00:57:28,260
ad free as well please get in touch on

1578
00:57:33,589 --> 00:57:30,540
Twitter Facebook Instagram that UFO

1579
00:57:37,010 --> 00:57:33,599
podcast of course on Twitter it's at UFO

1580
00:57:38,569 --> 00:57:37,020
UAP am and again folks as always keep

1581
00:57:40,110 --> 00:57:38,579
looking up you never know what you might

1582
00:58:03,230 --> 00:57:40,120
see

1583
00:58:06,470 --> 00:58:05,809
but I had some champagne

1584
00:58:17,450 --> 00:58:06,480
champagne

1585
00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:48,450
Infinity

1586
00:59:19,130 --> 00:59:05,710
[Music]

1587
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:21,770
time consider your space consider your

1588
00:59:25,250 --> 00:59:24,000
lies consider your life considering your

1589
01:00:06,910 --> 00:59:25,260
eyes

1590
01:00:19,890 --> 01:00:08,610
thank you

1591
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:30,410
[Music]